More Kenyan Doping

So with 100% certainty you can vouch for all of those athletes being clean? .

Diminishing returns are not NO returns.

-OR-

Is altitude training just a ruse to cover up the doping? That seems to be USADA's point. Keep in mind that even sprinters have admitted to doing EPO (Marion Jones and Kelli White, at least). Supposedly, it helps with recovery from hard workouts, so you can train more often.

There will be more names coming out of Africans testing positive. Sadly, none of them will be highly recognizable names. Some shoes companies have enough money to cover up a few who've already tested positive. The only way these names will ever surface is if a witch hunt similar to Armstrong comes about. Just like the MLB rarely sees many 50 plus home run seasons I think the world will see a lot fewer 2:03 and even 2:04 marathons.

Athletics (like many things) is *very* much about incentives. For all of those who say that Kenyans don't have the same incentives as other countries, that's a perverted way of thinking about things. So, think (if you can)...

If, you come from a place with high reputational costs (like you want to get a job that requires some previous exposure to higher/decent ethics - very different between and among countries. Not saying that reputation doesn't matter for all countries, but I would claim that for some countries, the marginal detriment for being a doper are much worse), then you also have a higher cost of deviating from the "truth" in your professional running career. Low reputational costs would allow someone to "deviate" and cheat. It's not a hard model to consider (for those who understand about even a simple prisoner's dilemma problem) ...

So, to control for different (a-priori) beliefs, you have to think about the natural and behavioral factors.

I once met an Olympian in the discuss who *truly* believed it was okay to blood dope - it was your blood to begin with, so why not store it. To an American (like me), I thought it was interesting to hear another take, but I thought it was wrong. Like I said, there are behavioral factors to understanding these things.

I've met Ngeny and many others of the KIM camp back in the day. Some of them took "malaria" injections a few times a week. Were they taking EPO and other things - I think yes. Did they didn't know what's happening? I think no. I don't blame them. Does it mean that they weren't doping - no.

To hear that EPO or any other drug like HGH or the likes doesn't help athletes is stupid. To think that it doesn't help "some" people but others is suggestive at best. We would need a natural experiment to conclude wither way.

I know this is too much for LRC, so I'll let you bash other principles...

i've been thinking about what canova said

about his top guys winning clean

i've been watching geb and bekele dominate distance for 20yrs

and i no longer think they did it clean

i''m struggling to see how clean guys are winning at that level

This is anecdotal, but how many guys does Kenya or Ethiopia that seem to be as talented as Ritz? A lot. There are tons of junior athletes at his level. So having seen him run in HS, as he ran in MI, where I grew up..I saw him run in HS from his freshman to senior year...and having seen some unbelievable runs, I really think that there are very clean athletes running very fast. Dathan ran sub 9 in dual meets and sub 4:10 in duals as well. I saw him run the OK Red Conference meet in 4:05.8 for a 1600. This for a guy with no speed. He came back and ran sub 9. I have no trouble believing that he is clean, nor do I doubt that there are other athletes as talented or more that have been less injured and trained just as hard and running faster.

Renato Canova wrote:

I explained several times that, with the specific [..] physiological qualities of the top runners, EPO doesn't give any advantage

I am a frequent reader of cyclingnews.com clinic and Jonathan Vaughters posts there frequently about all matters doping.

One interesting aspect is that during the 2000's, they would hire their talent based on hematocrit. The higher the natural hct, the less you can enhance the performance. So they would go for the cheaper riders with lower hct and then dope them to the legal limit (I think 49?).

Now I don't want to speak for Renato but maybe he means that the absolut top runners already have a hct of about 45-47, so there is very little you can do without risking too much.

FWIW, Armstrongs hct is ~40.

coach d wrote:

This seems to imply that not only is there scientific validity to taking EPO at altitude, but doing so at altitude may allow it to be used and not detected. And lets make it clear that this would apply to Salazar using altitude chambers for Rupp and Farah just as it would apply to East Africans living at altitude.

Any comment?

That is true, however, there are altitude benefits even without doping. So just because an athlete lives at altitude or uses a tent doesn't automatically mean he is also doping.

Here is a short clip about Floyd Landis altitude chamber. Looks cozy:

It is odd that people some Kenya to get caught, then a Kenyan gets caught, but they are not happy still because they want a certain top Kenya to be caught because THEY know he is doping. I wish I could test with my eyes & gut too! I think if you are such a top Kenyan, it is a no win situation even if God knows you are innocent because someone will still insist that they "know" you are guilty.

Maybe if you think about it, maybe Coach Canova is making sense (although without evidence). If you ignore what he is saying and assume top Kenyans are doping (but other runners in the world are not), then it makes sense that a top Kenyan on EPO and God knows what else, can only manage about 12.50s and 2.05ish e.t.c. and they can't beat Mo Farah, Rupp and several others on quite a number of occasions.

Hehe. You know if WADA sponsored such a demonstration with big $$ and scientific supervision maybe it could happen.

Or not.

that is way too much

ramzi was worth better than 3'39 entering '04

from another topic

bottom line

epo is great for improving times for 5k & up ( but not by amounts some posters believe )

however, it's not offering much for 800/1500

for that, you woud need a cocktail with some steroids to get maybe 1.5 - 2s off 800 & 4 - 5s off 1500

you have lost all your credibility by posting this nonsense.

I'm not interested to have credibility with people speaking without knowing, that is exactly what happens in Letsrun.

My credibility depends on the results of the athletes working with me, on what I explain about methodology all around the World, and on the clear relation I have with all the athletes coming Kenya and knowing me, from several Countries. So, or you think all the athletes coming to Iten from several Countries, European and American, are cheaters, or you have to admit they come here for having advantages using altitude, new and more free type of training, full immersion with the Kenyan mentality. We had people as Arne Gabius, from Germany, 31 years old, coming here after years around 13'30" or slower, in one season running 13'13" and 7'35". We have here the first step of the change of Mo Farah, running 12'57" in 2010.

We have here the preparation of the European Cross Country Champion Andrea Lalli. Do you think they come Kenya for taking some EPO without antidoping control, or for improving their mentality and their physiological qualities?

Last explanation because with top athletes EPO doesn't work, but I think all the "experts" speaking in this website are not able to understand because they have, in any case, their established in advance opinion :

1. Taking EPO you increase the viscosity.

2. With proper training, a top athlete in 4 months can increase his total volume of blood of 25% (so he can have about 1.5 liters of blood more in his circulatory system).

3. If the viscosity is higher, the total volume of blood cant increase.

4. Speaking about Marathon, where you use a PERCENTAGE of the Aerobic Power because you run under the Lactic Threshold, the most important thing is to reduce the periferal resistance to the blood circulation. In other words, less viscosity = possibility to have a faster circulation. This means that the wagon transporting Oxygen can travel more times, in the same unit of time, through the "stations" where can release it to the muscle fibers. So, running at marathon speed (about 95% of the Lactic Threshold), you can have more aerobic capacity (connected with low viscosity).

5. At the end, every connection with what happens in cycling is completely wrong. They are two different sports, with different requests, and to think they are similar because both are connected with "endurance" is a big mistake, and only an exercise for people not knowing the reality of different sports.

You shouldnt try teach these people . let them shout and roar. Some of them are not mentally right by the sound of it..Maybe they drink too much Coke in the US..One ''coach'' has pointed out that USADA consider anyone one triing at altitude as a cheat covering up. Come on. ..Another idiot sounded very juvenile and basically verbally abused you ..Terrible.

Renato, you are a saint to continue explaining this stuff.

Renato Canova wrote:

We had people as Arne Gabius, from Germany, 31 years old, coming here after years around 13'30" or slower, in one season running 13'13" and 7'35".

As much as I think that Arne Gabius is a nice guy, it is also worth noting that he used to be coached by Dieter Baumann, who tested positive before.

Do you think they come Kenya for taking some EPO without antidoping control, or for improving their mentality and their physiological qualities?

You can train in the Southwest US at altitude, great weather and NO RISK OF MALARIA. Yet people prefer to fly to rural Kenya. Hmmm...

5. At the end, every connection with what happens in cycling is completely wrong.

No one wants to connect their sports to cycling. But EPO, testosterone, Nandrolone, blood doping, HGH are also very beneficial in running. That is a fact.

Renato: don't retreat in the face of anonymous idiocy. Loud individuals who lazily believe East African running dominance is due solely to doping will not be put off that belief by anything you say. Don't make them your audience. There are more informed people listening.

Considering how dirty all these east Africans are, it is even more impressive to see how Galen Rupp lately DOMINATES the world of LD running.