Sprintgeezer: Sprint training advice

I apologize for doubting your existence/sincerity and for being an *ss. There you were in the results.

No worries! Wait were you at the the Bolles meet? Or did they actually post the results online?

Thanks for the heads up actually! I didn't think they'd bother to post the results. Thy didn't give me an official result at the meet for the 800m but they have it up there.

Third meet of the series was today (second for me). I went down the track yesterday because I got the days mixed up but I was there by the time I realized it, so I decided to get a workout in.

Ran a 200m but my watch didn't start and I wanted some idea of where I was so I decided to run 100m, spiked up (I've been racing in a 7 year old pair of XC spikes). I was feeling oddly good and was surprised when I clicked myself at 13.9 (rounded up from 13.8x). I wasn't sure of myself so I ran another 100 and got 13.9 again.

So going into today I thought I was in good shape (for me and consideringy training) but I was afraid I would underperform.

100m starts up and the eve is loaded with high school guys fresh off their season so I know I'm going to get my @ss handed to me worse than usual. Gun goes off, I start like crap, transition awkwardly and flail to the finish dead last in my heat.

Results go up about ten minutes later and what do you know:

13.68

I'll take it

(Ran the 800m later as well and was pleased with myself but irrelevant to this thread)

I've been curious about what type of aerobic running sprinters do in the general preparation phase (GPP, or base phase) of their training. I've seen references to "aerobic work" by Maurice Wilson, but he didn't say exactly what that means. I've heard Glenn Mills wants Usain Bolt to run continuously for only for six minutes or less to avoid dulling the fast twitch response.

Would be curious what Sprintgeezer or any other knowledgeable person has to say on this topic.

I remember reading an old track training book printed in the 60s that recommended having sprinters run cross country in the Fall for general conditioning. I believe this is now considered bad for sprinters.

[quote]Aerobic work in the GPP wrote:

've been curious about what type of aerobic running sprinters do in the general preparation phase (GPP, or base phase) of their training. I've seen references to "aerobic work" by Maurice Wilson, but he didn't say exactly what that means. I've heard Glenn Mills wants Usain Bolt to run continuously for only for six minutes or less to avoid dulling the fast twitch response.

Would be curious what Sprintgeezer or any other knowledgeable person has to say on this topic.

I remember reading an old track training book printed in the 60s that recommended having sprinters run cross country in the Fall for general conditioning. I believe this is now considered bad for sprinters.

The answer depends on whether you are talking 400 or pure sprinting (60-200). 400 people will do 20-30 minutes of jogging 1-2 times a week in the fall, and Clyde Hart has people jogging 1 mile XC for warmup, also in the fall. This is not done in main training phases.

For pure sprinting, professionals, including Bolt, do not even jog warmups (progressive stride-throughs). So-called "aerobic work" is extensive or intensive tempo at 65-90% speed with short recoveries (1-5 minute). The Jamaicans will do about 2K of this kind of work twice a week during general prep. American sub-10 guys might do 3X300 @85%, while Bolt has mentioned 300-450 meter repeats, again with short rest. Clyde Hart also does this kind of thing, starting with 15X200 early.

coach d wrote:

The answer depends on whether you are talking 400 or pure sprinting (60-200). 400 people will do 20-30 minutes of jogging 1-2 times a week in the fall, and Clyde Hart has people jogging 1 mile XC for warmup, also in the fall. This is not done in main training phases.

For pure sprinting, professionals, including Bolt, do not even jog warmups (progressive stride-throughs). So-called "aerobic work" is extensive or intensive tempo at 65-90% speed with short recoveries (1-5 minute). The Jamaicans will do about 2K of this kind of work twice a week during general prep. American sub-10 guys might do 3X300 @85%, while Bolt has mentioned 300-450 meter repeats, again with short rest. Clyde Hart also does this kind of thing, starting with 15X200 early.

Thanks for the prompt reply! I'm interested in the short sprints, specifically the 100m. When you mention the Jamaicans doing 65-90% effort for 2k, how do they break it up, what distances do they run? Seems like anything above 80% effort isn't aerobic, so I'm a little confused by 90% effort considered "aerobic." To me, sprinting is a strange type of running, technically it is anaerobic but it seems neither aerobic nor anaerobic at least for a race. Energetically, I've been told a short sprint race boils down to the body burning ATP.

My interpretation of your response is it looks like what they are calling "aerobic work" is actually "form work." Running maybe repeat 100s with 1-5 minute rest (more rest earlier in the phase) at 65-95% speed (again guessing the percentage increases as fitness improves over time in the phase) with a primary goal of working on sprint form and relaxation and of course the workout also provides a nice physical training effect.

Energistically, much of what people thought they knew has been proven wrong, as all systems turn on almost immediately. One implication of this is that you DO NOT get 60-80 meters of free alactic energy at the start of an 800. At max effort, ATP from CPK (alactic) tops in TWO seconds, production from glycolytic sources tops at 15 seconds but it takes several seconds to ramp up, and mitochondrial respiration gradually increases as other sources fail. The 200 has as much as 25% aerobic energy by some measurements, which is where aerobic sources come in.

Tempo training is normally broken down as:

extensive tempo 65-80% speed, 100-200m training distance, 1-2 minute rest

intensive tempo 80-90% speed, 200-400m training distance, 3-5 minute rest

Intensive tempo is also what much of Clyde Hart's system comes to. Much of his training is around 85% with a few minutes rest between repeats.

coach d wrote:

Energistically, much of what people thought they knew has been proven wrong, as all systems turn on almost immediately. One implication of this is that you DO NOT get 60-80 meters of free alactic energy at the start of an 800. At max effort, ATP from CPK (alactic) tops in TWO seconds, production from glycolytic sources tops at 15 seconds but it takes several seconds to ramp up, and mitochondrial respiration gradually increases as other sources fail. The 200 has as much as 25% aerobic energy by some measurements, which is where aerobic sources come in.

Tempo training is normally broken down as:

extensive tempo 65-80% speed, 100-200m training distance, 1-2 minute rest

intensive tempo 80-90% speed, 200-400m training distance, 3-5 minute rest

Intensive tempo is also what much of Clyde Hart's system comes to. Much of his training is around 85% with a few minutes rest between repeats.

That first part of your response is fascinating. I wonder if all the little warmup sprints top sprinters do before a major competition end up depleting the ATP, but based on what you're saying the ATP only lasts 2 seconds but it takes several seconds for glycolytic metabolism to ramp up, so perhaps it is good to burn off ATP during warmup? Or will the ATP replenish between the warmup and start of race? Seems like Bolt doesn't warmup as vigorously as other sprinters, I'm basing this on video clips of him and others in the warmup room at the London games.

In the Bolt documentary, they show him doing lots of 200m repeats fairly fast, so that looks like what you mention above. For my purposes, I'm planning on sticking to shorter intervals to avoid injury and burnout and plan to only race over 100m.

Sprint training doesn't call for "aerobic" work, including any genre of interval training that differs significantly from the demands of a sprint race. The coaches who incorporate it (including famous ones whose reputation rests on their association with genetically gifted athletes) are misguided, and yes I am saying I know better than them. Sprint training sessions themselves provide the only aerobic stimulus needed to condition an athlete to the aerobic demands of sprinting. You can ease into sprint workouts by doing the initial sessions at a reduced intensity until you are fit enough to handle repeated bouts of all-out sprinting. There is no need to devote months of training to activities that have nothing to do with the event you're supposed to be training for.

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Here's an article on the topic I stumbled across a while back while looking for info on the olympic lifts (deals with te role of aerobic work in the context of "explosive" athletic activities): https://www.t-nation.com/training/return-of-aerobic-work

coach d wrote:

Energistically, much of what people thought they knew has been proven wrong, as all systems turn on almost immediately.

. The 200 has as much as 25% aerobic energy by some measurements, which is where aerobic sources come in.

What % aerobic energy does the 400 have?

Where does this information come from?

Edwin Moses ran 6 miles a day off season for a base with no " real speedwork"

He trained with Henry Rono at some point. How fast was the aerobic work, and how did it play into being the best in the world at 400 meters hurdles.

the 400h is more aerobic than the 400 as it lasts three to five seconds longer than the open 400 (which I imagine makes a huge difference training wise). 400 hurdlers can make pretty decent 800m after all: Moses ran something like a 1:49, and Brandon Johnson of course ran 1:43, though I believe Harald Schmid trumps them both as a multieventer since I believe he ran his 1:44 while primarily a hurdler (does anyone know much about his training?

Anyway, progress report:

Last two track workouts have been breif but positive. Friday I got to the track (I found one that seems to be left open in the afternoons) and ran 2x200m in 28.9 and 29.7, the first time I've run sub 29 and the first time I've run sub 30 twice in a workout (I think? I might have accomplished both in one workout in HS but the timing was rough). Then today I ran another pair of 13.9s for the 100m

Running on a a track and wearing spikes (even Sh!tty XC spikes seems to make a huge difference). And the heat has been brutal in north Florida and as miserable as it's made my distance runs, it's felt pretty nice for the sprints--barring the friction on the track

Update:

Did another 2x200m and ran a slight PB in the first two, going 28.6 then 29.6.

Also public service announcement for those in Gainesville apparently there is a public track a few miles east of the UF campus. Seems to be open almost all the time and it is one of the nicest surfaces I've ever been on (comparable to the Bolles school track for a regional example). It's good to have since the hours at the UF track (combined with parking are really inconvenient)

Unfortunately I missed the last two meets of the summer series so looks like I'll have to wait for the next go around.

But I did go to the track today and record another modest PB in the 200m, 28.5. Jimson Lee on SpeedEndurance had a great tip for running the curve just by tilting your head into it. Worked well (SprintGeezer suggested something similar a while back, with the shoulders, though I felt this was less forced).

Been doing a lot of all out stuff at the track but once school starts up I plan to start more base type stuff, tempo sets (20-30x110yds... I hope to run a half decent 5k in the fall, plus weights)

My next big goals are a sub 28 for the two and to be able to clean and jerk my body weight.

Steady as she goes

Bumpin this old thread for any advice on long jump training/technique.

Went to the track yesterday and jumped (yes pathetic) 13.5 feet. My technique is pretty horrible though, and I'd like to add at least 3-4 feet to that eventually

How are your 100m times now?