On Thursday (Nov. 8), high school coaches in Kansas received their Fall surveys, where they can vote on this. Please contact your high school's coach and encourage them to vote for the move to 5K.
On Thursday (Nov. 8), high school coaches in Kansas received their Fall surveys, where they can vote on this. Please contact your high school's coach and encourage them to vote for the move to 5K.
There are some legitimate reasons to have girls run 5k:
(1) National races are 5k
(2) Possibly positive effect on recruitment
(3) No longer need both 4k and 5k courses.
But, saying that it is not fair that girls run a shorter distance than boys (which I have seen brought up many times) is ridiculous. For that to be true, 4k would have to be a worse distance than 5k. You may have your opinion on which distance you would rather run, but objectively both distances are just as valid. Cross country is not about running as far as you can, so the argument that girls can handle 5k isn't valid. Boys (and girls) can also handle 10k, but no one is saying it should be changed to that.
There are also good reasons that keeping it at 4k would be better. The difficulty of a run is determined by both time and intensity, NOT distance. As race TIME goes up, it takes a longer time to recover. The time it takes the average high school girl to run a 4k is close to the time it takes the average high school boy to run a 5k, which means their races are very similar in terms of intensity (as measured by %VO2 Max) and recovery time.
If girls run 5k, the average girl will be running her race for a longer period of time, which will result in longer recovery time from races and more stress on the body than it does for the boys. So by seemingly making it "more equal", you'd actually be making it less equal.
I'm not against it changing to 5k, but no one should act like it is an injustice to girls that they only run 4k now. I don't see much of that here, but that article that ESPN did earlier this year about Seidel and this issue was dripping with ignorance. I posted a comment on that article similar to what I've posted here and it was deleted, presumably because it didn't promote the "girl power" agenda they were going for.
Faulty Facts wrote:
I'm guessing that many of the non-5k states are non-distance running states
All the states are distance running states.
Cross country is a distance event.
I wish they would move it back down rather than move it up! The 5k is already killing my participation numbers with the girls. At a small school I have struggled to keep more than 5 girls on the roster because the option is to do cheerleading, volleyball, dance team, or run 3.1 miles in the heat.
Sadcoach wrote:
I wish they would move it back down rather than move it up! The 5k is already killing my participation numbers with the girls. At a small school I have struggled to keep more than 5 girls on the roster because the option is to do cheerleading, volleyball, dance team, or run 3.1 miles in the heat.
Well, of course. This move isn't really about 'fairness' or 'equality' or anything else. It's about celebrity wannabe coaches at rich schools who want to band together to use the scholastic season to ready their teams for the unsanctioned post-season meets (Nike, Footlocker) and make a name for their teams and thus themselves. This is the clear effect of high school cross country's version of AAU basketball or AYSO. They've lost sight of the real purpose of scholastic extracurricular activities and who those activities are supposed to serve and how. It's sad that they won't use their power in the ultimate best interest of the vast majority of kids who participate, or otherwise would.
Sadcoach wrote:
I wish they would move it back down rather than move it up! The 5k is already killing my participation numbers with the girls. At a small school I have struggled to keep more than 5 girls on the roster because the option is to do cheerleading, volleyball, dance team, or run 3.1 miles in the heat.
You're trying to recruit the wrong girls for cross country.
cheerleading... get serious wrote:
You're trying to recruit the wrong girls for cross country.
I don't understand. All the girls in the school have those options for extra curricular sports, or the option to just not do anything. It's sad but I have only 5% of the schools girls running and that did a lot of convincing to get it that high.
Indiana1600 wrote:
There are some legitimate reasons to have girls run 5k:
(1) National races are 5k
(2) Possibly positive effect on recruitment
(3) No longer need both 4k and 5k courses.
But, saying that it is not fair that girls run a shorter distance than boys (which I have seen brought up many times) is ridiculous...
Just to clarify, "fairness" for girls is not a major reason for changing, but I would say that the number of coaches who have directly written (in email) that girls are not strong enough shocks me!
The bigger issue is that girls in Kansas should be given the opportunity to compete on a level playing field as girls in 42 other states, as you've noted in points 1 and 2.
Sadcoach wrote:
I wish they would move it back down rather than move it up! The 5k is already killing my participation numbers with the girls. At a small school I have struggled to keep more than 5 girls on the roster because the option is to do cheerleading, volleyball, dance team, or run 3.1 miles in the heat.
I disagree! This is a distance sport. It's supposed to be tough...not easy. And because of that, not everyone is willing to try it. Those that put in the work and have the courage to stand at the starting line are pretty incredible. It's the nature of what cross country and distance running is about. Nobody talks about making football or wrestling or basketball or baseball easier so that more people can participate.
Truly, the best coaches are those that help their athletes understand that being an athlete is about facing adversity. We don't so much train to be runners, as much as we train to help kids develop the courage to take on adversity.
Are you getting more girls out for track? That may be your best route for the cheerleaders where they can run the 800 and mile on a flat track. In CC, work with who you can get and do the absolutely best you can do with them. They'll be great in life because of it...
Pat Melgares wrote:
It's supposed to be tough...not easy.
Where's the line between tough and unreasonable for high school extracurriculars in a mostly rural state? What mission are you really serving with this, does it really benefit the most kids? As for a "level playing field" with out-of-state runners, that holds true for just a handful of athletes at the very top and those coaches are free to give them the training that will help them. If they're trained right, any top runners should be fine for both 4K and 5K.
Sadcoach wrote:
cheerleading... get serious wrote:You're trying to recruit the wrong girls for cross country.
I don't understand. All the girls in the school have those options for extra curricular sports, or the option to just not do anything. It's sad but I have only 5% of the schools girls running and that did a lot of convincing to get it that high.
5% of the girls in the school isn't bad at all.
I'm not sure why you think it would be noticeably easier to recruit girls to run 2.5 miles rather than 3.1 miles, though... either way, they'll be running for a decent amount of time, rather than sitting on the sidelines cheering on football players or playing volleyball.
Rock Chalk Bullsh!t wrote:
Pat Melgares wrote:It's supposed to be tough...not easy.
Where's the line between tough and unreasonable for high school extracurriculars in a mostly rural state? What mission are you really serving with this, does it really benefit the most kids? As for a "level playing field" with out-of-state runners, that holds true for just a handful of athletes at the very top and those coaches are free to give them the training that will help them. If they're trained right, any top runners should be fine for both 4K and 5K.
Probably about the same as "the line between tough and unreasonable for high school extracurriculars" in a mostly urban state (probably well beyond 5k).
Rock Chalk Bullsh!t wrote:
Pat Melgares wrote:It's supposed to be tough...not easy.
Where's the line between tough and unreasonable for high school extracurriculars in a mostly rural state? What mission are you really serving with this, does it really benefit the most kids? As for a "level playing field" with out-of-state runners, that holds true for just a handful of athletes at the very top and those coaches are free to give them the training that will help them. If they're trained right, any top runners should be fine for both 4K and 5K.
What about other "rural" states that are running 5k with girls? It's not an issue whatsoever. "Unreasonable" to race 5k?! Give me a break.
Sez you.
Rock Chalk Bullsh!t wrote:
Pat Melgares wrote:It's supposed to be tough...not easy.
Where's the line between tough and unreasonable for high school extracurriculars in a mostly rural state? What mission are you really serving with this, does it really benefit the most kids? As for a "level playing field" with out-of-state runners, that holds true for just a handful of athletes at the very top and those coaches are free to give them the training that will help them. If they're trained right, any top runners should be fine for both 4K and 5K.
As for serving the most kids, this has less effect on top end kids as it will help the second-tier and third-tier athletes in the sport. They will benefit from additional consideration at DII, DIII, NAIA and community college programs. That's the message that coaches gave...not me.
I'd also say that challenging kids to do tough things almost always benefits them. They tend to respond to challenge, and the numbers of kids who come back saying they're glad they did it, and how it's helped them "get the job" or "got in med school" is well-documented. CC kids tend to be pretty special that way!
Also, in Kansas, a jump in distance in the mid-2000s. coincided with a jump in participation numbers. I don't think it was coincidence. Recent jumps in distance in Connecticut (to 5K) and Texas (higher divisions to 5K) has coincided with increases in participation, too. Connecticut increased its numbers to more than 20 percent since going to 5K for girls.
Does it benefit the most kids? Who knows, but it has been shown to benefit more kids...
Not following along with the ongoing discussion, I would just like to say that in Illinois both guys and gals run 3 miles. Not 5k/4k or 5k/5k. We like to be different I guess. But if you notice, we also have some of the fastest girls(and guys for that matter) in the country.
At least 12 girls sub 17 for 3 miles this year! One girl went 16:02!!
http://www.ihsa.org/SportsActivities/GirlsCrossCountry.aspx
Let them run the equal distance. It might scare some guys into running faster. "I don't want to get beat by a girl!"
Illinois Boy wrote:
I would just like to say that in Illinois both guys and gals run 3 miles.
When did you start running 3 miles?
The guys went from 2 miles in the late 60's to 2.5 for a year or two, and then went to 3 right about 1970/71 when Craig Virgin came along. Guys have been 3 miles ever since. I think that's about when we went to Detweiller for all our state meets too. Girls started running in 1979 with 2 miles, then went to 2.5 in 1998, and then to 3 miles in 2002. You'll have to dig around a bit, but its buried in here somewhere.http://ihsa.org/SportsActivities/GirlsCrossCountry/RecordsHistory.aspxhttp://ihsa.org/SportsActivities/BoysCrossCountry/RecordsHistory.aspx
short course wrote:
When did you start running 3 miles?
According to the thread below and elsewhere, Illinois does not yet run 3 miles.
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4886970&page=2
[quote]short course wrote:
According to the thread below and elsewhere, Illinois does not yet run 3 miles.
So the State course and 1 or 2 others are not exactly 3 miles, my point was that Illinois girls can compete and survive and do fine at a distance over 4k, and to say that guys and girls run the same distance in races. 2 examples of why Kansas should up the distance for girls.
I'm currently running in Kansas and all the Kansas girls on our team ran 4k in High School, which confuses a lot of the out of state guys on our team, including me.