Let 'Em Run: Kansas Girls for 5K

What is the current distance for girls cross in Kansas?

Besides the fact that most other states are now running 5k for the girls race distance, why do YOU feel this should happen?

Kansas girls run 4K currently.

Two big reasons for moving to 5K, for Kansas or any of the other 8 states: Equal competitive footing with girls from 5K states. College coaches routinely say they are more apt to recruit a girl who races the 5K distance over a girl -- who may have equal talent -- that races 4K. They want to be able to compare apples to apples, and a majority of the "apples" are running 5K in high school.

Understand that the top-end girls are going to get recruited no matter what. That next level gets more of an opportunity to be recruited and get financial assistance, if not at the D-1 level, then certainly at DII, DIII and NAIA.

Reason Number Two: For the high school girl, the 4K distance puts them at a competitive disadvantage at such events at Footlocker and Nike. At Footlocker, 87 percent of the national qualifiers since 2000 are from 5K states -- another 7% are from Texas (which has bucked the trend, though that state moved to 5K this Fall). That means that the other 8 non-5K states -- roughly 16 percent of the country -- has earned just 5 percent of the national spots at Footlocker since 2000.

On a personal level, I am concerned about individual comments from coaches who think that girls are not physically capable of running 5K. I disagree, and I think most people would understand that girls this age are pretty dang tough!

Thanks for the quick reply Pat!

I also would like to see girls run 5k but only because I see way too many poorly set up/measured courses when schools need to have two race distances and use a common start and common finish. I also coach both guys and girls and can never walk/run both courses before the meet starts with both genders. One distance/course would make this much easier.

Most college coaches care much more about track times than 4k or 5k times which are rarely ran on accurate courses.

Your math confuses me. 87% + 7%=93%, so wouldn't that leave 7% of the remaining population producing 5% of the remaining FL spots? Some of these states that run less than 5k probably aren't distance hotbeds and probably have good reason for shorter distance - I'm guessing heat/hot climate is a factor for some of the states still running shorter distances.

Regarding the college coaches, I wasn't sharing a personal opinion, and definitely wasn't guessing: In surveying coaches across the country (5K and non-5K states), those are comments they made directly. (I did my initial survey work in 2009 and updated only recently.) They were simply sharing their mindset, which definitely indicates an inclination to give girls who have raced 5K cross country a preference over their 4K counterparts.

Here's the exact percentages:

5K States -- 87.06%

Texas -- 7.14%

Other non-5K -- 5.80%

Pat Melgares wrote:

Regarding the college coaches, I wasn't sharing a personal opinion, and definitely wasn't guessing: In surveying coaches across the country (5K and non-5K states), those are comments they made directly. (I did my initial survey work in 2009 and updated only recently.) They were simply sharing their mindset, which definitely indicates an inclination to give girls who have raced 5K cross country a preference over their 4K counterparts.

Here's the exact percentages:

5K States -- 87.06%

Texas -- 7.14%

Other non-5K -- 5.80%

So I'm guessing that many of the non-5k states are non-distance running states in the same regional as Texas, and with a much lower overall population, thus giving Texas the percentage advantage?

Pat, here is a UMKC law review article written by Jonathan Little, J.D., University of Missouri-Kansas City, 2007; qualifier for U.S. Olympic Trials (2008).

He addresses the 4000m girls' cross country issue from a historical and Title IX perspective. This may help with coaches who are looking at it from a "protectionist" perspective. It really is an outdated mode of thinking for coaches and administrators to hold such an archaic view.

By the way, I am a coach in Kansas, and see the issue every year when girls run KC Metro and NXN or Footlocker regionals. Even the potential greatest KS girls distance runner ever, Alli Cash, has had perception problems in national rankings based on her lack of solid performance data at 5000m.

http://jonlittlelaw.com/RunningAgainstTheWind.pdf

The non-5K states are Minnesota, Nebraska, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Wisconsin and Mississippi. Some in the same region, some not. Wisconsin is another state that does pretty well at Footlocker and Nike.

You can check all the data at a couple sites that have really good information:

www.nfhs.org

(National Federation of High Schools)

and

www.footlockercc.com

(Footlocker/Kinney)

Thanks for the note! I have Jon Little's article sitting on my desk!

"Although the Munich games of 1972 were the first to include the 1,500 meters and 3,000 meters for women..."Huh? Why does this guy make such a boneheaded error in the FIRST PARAGRAPH of his article?! I see no reason to read on, given there's obviously no chance his data is accurate.

ks1 wrote:

http://jonlittlelaw.com/RunningAgainstTheWind.pdf

Would you mind listing the gold, silver and medal winners for the women's 1,500 meters at the 1968 Olympics?

1972 was the first Olympics to add 1500m for women. The 3000m was contested in 1984, 1988, and 1992, with the 5000m established in the 1996 Olympics. So you got him on his inclusion of both distances with reference to the same Olympiad.

Would you mind indicating whom you believe to have claimed that such a race took place in '68?

Pat Melgares wrote:

Would you mind listing the gold, silver and medal winners for the women's 1,500 meters at the 1968 Olympics?

Unhappy basterd wrote:

Would you mind indicating whom you believe to have claimed that such a race took place in '68?

Pat Melgares wrote:

Would you mind listing the gold, silver and medal winners for the women's 1,500 meters at the 1968 Olympics?

That's the point...there was no women's 1,500 in 1968! Nor any time before that. There was, however, an 800m first run in 1928, discontinued, then again in 1960. You seemed to think the author of the article had made an error saying that 1972 was the first year of the women's 1,500.

So, are you opposed to high school girls running 5000? If so, why?

Although I am not opposed to changing the distance from the current 4K to 5K. This change of 1K however will have little or no effect as to the outcome of most races. Additionally, having coached on the collegiate level, if you can't gauge a runner based on their times in a 4K versus needing a 5K to guage a runner, then I think coaching is not an occupation you should be pursuing. For instance, any coach can easily see Alli Cash's current ability, it is the good to great coach who can predict her full potential as she has yet to development hence leaving little room for improvement in the future.

Pat Melgares wrote:

You seemed to think the author of the article had made an error saying that 1972 was the first year of the women's 1,500.

That's not how I read his post. The author of the article DID err if he indicated that the women's 3,000 was added to the OG in 1972.

No, my point is that the author made an error saying there was a 3000m in 1972.I am totally in support of HS girls running 5k.But with his fact checking/proof reading skills and your reading comprehension, we better hope that someone else is also fighting this good fight.

Pat Melgares wrote:

You seemed to think the author of the article had made an error saying that 1972 was the first year of the women's 1,500.

So, are you opposed to high school girls running 5000? If so, why?

So a lawyer who competed in the Olympic Trials wrote a law review article in 2008 that vaguely indicates 2 track distances were added in 1972 Olympiad, when in fact, 1 was added in 1972, and the other later in 1984, I, ks1, include that in my post to Pat for historical and Title IX perspective, and you blame Pat? That's funny.

I can see why you're an "unhappy basterd," you've got a big stick stuck up your a**.