You know and you've seen it - teams with maybe only 5 guys on whole college XC team and their #3 guy is running 32min for an 8K.
Now take a fairly decent varsity XC high school team (with say varsity top 5 of 18min 5k guys average) would be able to beat them ...that's embarrassing. So why do these teams exist?
Why does anyone expect anything else from small colleges with no scholarships?
It's worse when D1 teams are slower than high schools
Wow Unbelievable wrote:
Why does anyone expect anything else from small colleges with no scholarships?
+1
Isn't embarrassing when 27-28 min 8k guys take themselves too seriously (not realizing that they are just as close to 32 min guys as Bekele) and they wind up injured an/or not enjoying themselves?
High school automatically get a body of people and there are always a group of those people who will be drawn to running. Some areas with the right luck or the right tradition can do very well with XC teams just by who is at the school.
Colleges have to recruit runners. Some colleges can't for the life of day recruit the quality of runners that some high schools have that just show up. Have you ever seen a good club college XC team? You have 10,000 students and you can't find any quality runners who want to run, but at a high school you have 1000 students and you can easily find a bunch of 18 minute guys usually. Explain this and you'll have your answer.
SDFGSDFG wrote:
It's worse when D1 teams are slower than high schools
Bingo. And there are *plenty* of them. One of the better-kept secrets is how many truly terrible D1 cross teams there are--in place solely so a college can have enough "other" sports, so that the NCAA will allow it to sponsor basketball.
Intramurals XC wrote:
You know and you've seen it - teams with maybe only 5 guys on whole college XC team and their #3 guy is running 32min for an 8K.
Now take a fairly decent varsity XC high school team (with say varsity top 5 of 18min 5k guys average) would be able to beat them ...that's embarrassing. So why do these teams exist?
They beat them because the hs kids are running only 5k while the collegiates run 8k. It's very simple really.
Most High school runners can't get into most Division 3 colleges; let alone actually go to class, get solid grades and practice every day.
Wow Unbelievable wrote:
Why does anyone expect anything else from small colleges with no scholarships?
Because people expect that an adult who commits to a team will make an effort. Nobody makes you run track or XC in college. When you make the decision to become a collegiate athlete, people assume that you're willing to put some time and effort into the sport. So it is surprising when a whole team decides not to train seriously after they've willingly committed to running on a collegiate squad.
What's really embarrassing is that schools like Haverford and North Central could beat up on most D1 schools despite have exactly zero scholarships.
I expect hard work wrote:
Because people expect that an adult who commits to a team will make an effort. Nobody makes you run track or XC in college. When you make the decision to become a collegiate athlete, people assume that you're willing to put some time and effort into the sport. So it is surprising when a whole team decides not to train seriously after they've willingly committed to running on a collegiate squad.
People expect this? Which people? Nobody makes you give a damn about someone else's commitment to someone else's team. No team is obliged to take themselves seriously at all. It's their team, they can dick around all they want. There are plenty of people who join the XC team of Podunk Satellite Campus of Big State College just for something to do on the weekends or to have some people to drink with while staying reasonably fit. D3 cross country is the perfect place for this.
Philly Cheez wrote:
What's really embarrassing is that schools like Haverford and North Central could beat up on most D1 schools despite have exactly zero scholarships.
Many, many D1 cross country teams also have exactly zero scholarships, and most of the rest only have one or two to split with the track team. Unsurprisingly, Haverford usually competes well with these types of teams.
pjb wrote:
People expect this? Which people? Nobody makes you give a damn about someone else's commitment to someone else's team. No team is obliged to take themselves seriously at all. It's their team, they can dick around all they want. There are plenty of people who join the XC team of Podunk Satellite Campus of Big State College just for something to do on the weekends or to have some people to drink with while staying reasonably fit. D3 cross country is the perfect place for this.
This kind of attitude is one of the big reasons that I no longer look at participation in athletics as a big plus on a resume. When I first started hiring, I figured that anyone who could balance school and athletics had to be an exceptional person. I knew how hard I worked in college between academics and track and I thought that others probably had similar experiences.
I've realized, though, that many schools basically treat collegiate athletics as the adult equivalent of playing in the sandbox while other schools will hand a degree to any moron who can bounce a ball (no, Allen "we takin bout practice" Iverson did not earn a degree from one of the top schools in the country). Now, unless I have specific knowledge of a school and its athletic program, I'm not inclined to give much additional consideration based on athletic participation. This is sad because, in my mind, being a student athlete should be a sign of exceptional talent and work ethic.
lease wrote:
SDFGSDFG wrote:It's worse when D1 teams are slower than high schools
Bingo. And there are *plenty* of them. One of the better-kept secrets is how many truly terrible D1 cross teams there are--in place solely so a college can have enough "other" sports, so that the NCAA will allow it to sponsor basketball.
Exactly. Before this turns into a thread ripping on sh!tty DI teams, understand that most of their schools expect them to fail. At best, they are utterly indifferent. That creates a whole host of problems within that program that are very difficult to overcome. And don't give us that baloney (a different poster) about DIII having no scholarships, we all know there are ways that most decent programs and many in between can "pull strings" when it comes to "academic" or "involvement" scholarships and not have to play by the same rules that DI schools have to. I get it, there are some very good DIII programs out there worthy of respect, and plenty of DIII (and some DI) schools out there that couldn't beat a decent high school team. But there is usually more going on behind the scenes than you typically realize.
"Isn't it embarrassing when there are slow runners that are slower than fast runners?"
That's basically what you're asking.
How much do you think the average D3 runner improves from high school to college?
Pope T-Bag II wrote: And don't give us that baloney (a different poster) about DIII having no scholarships, we all know there are ways that most decent programs and many in between can "pull strings" when it comes to "academic" or "involvement" scholarships and not have to play by the same rules that DI schools have to.
Bullshit. People love to claim this happens, but I've never seen any indication that it's common. It's just something people like to think, but any school that does this is violating NCAA rules. They do care about these things, and any school that gets caught cheating on scholarships is going to get some severe punishments.
I know my D3 school didn't have any special dispensation for athletes, and we were nationally competitive in a number of sports.
I expect hard work wrote:
Wow Unbelievable wrote:Why does anyone expect anything else from small colleges with no scholarships?
Because people expect that an adult who commits to a team will make an effort. Nobody makes you run track or XC in college. When you make the decision to become a collegiate athlete, people assume that you're willing to put some time and effort into the sport. So it is surprising when a whole team decides not to train seriously after they've willingly committed to running on a collegiate squad.
So now you're assuming that because someone is slow they don't "train seriously" or "make an effort"? Get real. I ran at a D3 program and we all busted our butts as hard as the D1 teams, albeit at a slower pace because we werent all Galen Rupps or Henry Leleis. The focus in D3 is on academics (when you're paying $40k a year you take academics seriously) and so that always comes first, unlike many better D1 programs where they could care less about academics.
Sorry dude. I won a national championship at a DIII school after being all-state in high school. I talked to a number of DIII schools and never was I offered more financial aid because of it. I was a grad assistant as well at a DIII school and I can tell you that they keep athletics and financial aid completely separate. Parents tried to pull that on us and it was the same thing every time. If we tried to contact financial aid, they would tell us to suck it.
Also there are plenty of people who ran a 505(or 530) mile in HS who could run 70 mpw and still not run much less than 30 min. Just because someone runs a 31 min 8k doesnt automatically mean that they are lazy/dont care etc.