BYU and Portland TIE for WCC title wow!!!

heyman wrote:

Check out this picture then the next one...

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=3346620883169&set=a.3346513240478.110583.1798219944&type=3&permPage=1

The next picture is of Curtis Carr, not of Steve Flint. Among your pictures there are none of Flint and the Gonzaga runner crossing the finish line.

Curious citizen wrote:

If they were neck and neck, it is possible that the Gonzaga runner didn't protest because he didn't know. As for chip times, are they notoriously wrong?

That is why the finish chute is manned with many people all very organized and listening for the lead official to call out the order....highly doubt they messed it up.

It's not that they are notoriously wrong, it's that if they were used as the primary deciding factor in a close finish you would see some wild leg kicking and guys diving feet first and sliding like they were trying to score the winning run in the World Series or something.

Time takes a back seat to order of finish.

They use chip times in high school/road races, and I've never seen anyone slide into the finish or do any crazy kicks.

"Special Informant" needs to stop blaming Portland for the lack of a photo-finish camera.

The West Coast Conference is responsible for hosting all of its championships and pays for everything. WCC officials came to Portland earlier in the fall for the WCC Preview meet and have been planning this event for months.

The race was located in Portland and UP provided manpower, but the WCC made all the decisions. Please stop making it out like it was some sort of Portland conspiracy or that UP was lacking on the planning.

If you have a problem, contact WCC commissioner Jamie Zaninovich.

This post is a shame, and I hope people don't take it too seriously. This person is obviously only partially informed. I can tell you as a coach involved in the WCC, both head coaches were gracious and very collaborative in this discrepancy. On top of it, both WCC finish line officials had Tate in front of Flint. I agree about the misfortune of the sequence of events, and be assured that they got it right and it's really unclassy of this poster to minimize the efforts of both teams and the meet officials by trying to spread lies and stir up adolescent drama. Trust me, BYU has bigger fish to fry this year!

Special Informant wrote:

In The NO wrote:

Not surprising. I heard Conner pulled the rug on the local CC series at the last minute too. They had an agreement and schedule months in advance and then poof, deal reneged and they had to scramble to pull something else together last minute. Quality organization all around.

I also heard that Rob Conner of Portland was VERY opposed to a review of the situation and even tried to cite that the "30 minute" protest window had elapsed. Um...the 30 minute protest time frame is in relation to a rules violation ie an athlete wearing the wrong uniform, a foul that occurred or someone cutting the course....It has absolutely nothing to do with getting the results correct. Get the Damn results correct and if your team win's, loses or ties, it is what you earned.

I heard that Conner knows the truth about Obama being born in Kenya and has proof. He uses this proof to blackmail the president into giving him info about extra terrestrials whom he can recruit. This explains why Kinsella was so good, he's not from this planet.

Someone was supposed to post where in the NCAA rulebook it states that torsos are to be used to determine place instead of chip times.

Do we know where the timing chip is located. At some meets I know that the timing chip is in the bib, not on the shoe. Unless you know for certain that the timing chip was on the shoe, why don't you post it as a question rather than a 'fact'.

I spoke with the head USATF official the next day and he said the BYU protest was made 1 hour after the results were posted. The rules state protests must be filed 30 minutes following the posting of results so they didn't even review the tape. There's nothing that could be done about it.

BYU joins a high school conference and then complains when they can't win the conference championship. Sounds like something BYU would do.

In The NO wrote:

Not surprising. I heard Conner pulled the rug on the local CC series at the last minute too. They had an agreement and schedule months in advance and then poof, deal reneged and they had to scramble to pull something else together last minute. Quality organization all around.

i can confirm this is true. luckily an alternate venue was found.

I don't know if this is true, but it is possible. Look at the photos, the timing chips are on their shoes.

The BYU runner could have finished ahead of the Gonzaga runner in chute order, but if the Gonzaga runner had his foot with the chip forward when he crossed, and the BYU runner didn't, then even though the BYU runner was ahead, the Gonzaga runner could have had a faster chip time.

It's possible and a shame if true, but I don't know if it's true. If BYU is mad or disappointed, just show everyone you're better by running well at nationals. Portland isn't the only team to beat, Colorado and OK State have to be the favorites.

Seriously, who cares? It's the WCC. Two teams in the top-20 raced to a virtual dead heat. One second separated total cumulative times. I believe both Conner and Eyestone agreed it was a tie in the end. The WCC didn't back track and cited the 30 minute protest window as their reasoning.

Portland gets the at-large points after the head-to-head tie-breaker.

Karl Welzein wrote:

Seriously, who cares? It's the WCC. Two teams in the top-20 raced to a virtual dead heat. One second separated total cumulative times. I believe both Conner and Eyestone agreed it was a tie in the end. The WCC didn't back track and cited the 30 minute protest window as their reasoning.

Portland gets the at-large points after the head-to-head tie-breaker.

Wait, really? I assumed the OP brought this up because Portland got a free at large point based on shady dealings. Now I've come to find out:

1) The protest wasn't filed on time

2) Portland wins the 1-5 head-to-head tie-breaker anyway, so while they would've tied for the Conference title, Portland would still get the more important at large point for nationals REGARDLESS.

What a waste of time and name-calling.

I hate to break it to the OP after a well thought out post but when two chips are used (one on each foot) the torso does not determine the finish, it is the shoe.

The person who said torso at the finish was wrong, that is where the problem lies.

Check the rules...

I comment ed that it might be the torso, not that it was the torso, if I am the poster that you are referring to.

Related point:

Which is better, the torso or the foot. In XC skiing, they use the ski (the boot?) and you can see riders thrust the ski forward. In XC, if it is the lead foot, then it is essentially contrary to all of track running etc., leaving some to push their chest across in the standard manner, to their detriment. My initial take is to prefer the bib, which is required attire, to the shoe, which is not and which can (and does) come off. Here I am just interested in people's opinions and experiences (not any connection to the thread topic.

Here are some applicable rules from the 2012 NCAA rule book with my commentary. You can download the 2013-2014 rules here:

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/playing+rules+administration/ncaa+rules+sports/track+and+field/playing+rules/track+and+field+index

"4-3-8: Correctable Error

Within 72 hours after the last event of a meet, or before the subsequent round, results can be corrected if administrative errors are detected (i.e., incorrect calculation of team, individual or combined-event scores, timing error)."

The 30 minute protest window does not apply to this situation. Any coach or official who said it was "case closed" because 30 minutes had expired has made a potentially grave mistake.

"5-3-1: Placing Finishers

The runners shall be placed in the order in which any part of their torso (as distinguished from the head, neck, arms, legs, hands or feet) reached the perpendicular plane of the nearer edge of the finish line."

The number or type of transponders (chips) used is immaterial. The torso rules! (Except in high school, as I think someone already noted.) To Skeptic of It All, if you see a rule I have missed that says otherwise, please cite it.

"8-5-7f: Manual or Automatic Timers

Transponder (chip) system - When this system is being used for the official meet results, a ranked order list of times of all competitors shall be determined by reading the printout produced by the system, and recorded to the slower 1/10th second. The ranked order of competitors separated by not more than 1/10th second shall be verified."

"8-6-2b: Placing Finishers

An officially designated video or photograph must be used to verify the order of finish in all cases in which the timing system indicates a one-tenth second or less differential.

"Note: The method for placing finishers and the types of equipment required to properly place finishers for meets such as conferences, regions and championships shall be detailed in the appropriate handbook for the competition."

Unless the WCC has decided otherwise, video MUST be used to verify finishes within 1/10 second! Unfortunately, the results that I found online do not report times to the tenth. They should.

"8-6-3d: Team Scoring

Ties in team scoring shall not be broken, except for advancement to the championships finals."

Another posted already mentioned this correctly, and correctly noted that Portland wins the tie breaker in any case, 3-2. (Side note, Portland wins the dual score 27-28).

Thanks!

Second the thanks for the information and the clarity of its presentation. Thanks for taking the time to do this and to organize it.