Bolt's not on drugs, he's always been great (with videos when he was young)

Your post is rambling.

In the case of the above 3, can you give us a better correlation of the times of their joining of the club, and of their dramatic career drop in times?

If the correlation is any good, then it must be explored. Knowledge is one possible answer, but in order to be believed, it would have to be knowledge that nobody else has, and proof would need to be found of its translation to training protocols, and actual successful implementation thereof by the athletes.

PED's is another possible answer, along with, of course, knowledge of how to use them and get the most training benefit from them.

So, while "knowledge" is a possible answer, included in that broad category you provided would be knowledge of how and when to juice, and with what.

Thus, even if your suggestion is true with respect to those 3 athletes, it in no way proves the contrary proposition that Bolt is not on PED's, and it can actually be used to support the proposition that not only he, but Blake, is using. Do you understand this?

Whaaat--

Reaching? Consider these facts, on the specific issue of rapid lowering of career times: there has been a statistically anomalously rapid lowering of times by certain athletes, often from one season to the next, but not all those athletes are Jamaican--but some of them are.

Take somebody like Jeter. While it is true that her rapid time lowering came at a later point in her career than did Blake's or Bolt's, it is also true that it happened during roughly the same calendar years: a half-second improvement from 06-07, and another third of a second from 08-09. Blake, a third of a second from 08-09, and Bolt a third of a second from 07-08. B&B's improvements were followed up by incrementally more, putting them at close to a half-second total.

Jeter in the lead, followed by Bolt, then Blake.

Not to mention that Bolt has set WR's, Blake would have a WR if he hadn't fallen asleep in his 19.26, and Jeter is the WR-holder but for a defective wind reading in Indianapolis long ago.

And B, B, and J aren't the only ones, we all know who they are. Take a look at some of the Jamaican women, for instance. SAFP, almost a half-second from 06-07, followed by over a half-second from 07-08. In 2 years (the same years as the other miraculously quick improvements), she cut a SECOND off her 100m time.

There are lots of examples. The more examples there are of athletes who have the same dramatic improvements within the same couple of calendar years, the more it suggests that affiliation with any particular club is not the particular source of that improvement. The only really confounding factors would be those that occurred during the same years for all athletes--namely, the Beijing Olympics in 2008. But, we see Jeter and SAFP improving the year before, and Blake improving the year after.

Plus, not all athletes had these types of similarly large, coincident-in-time improvements, yet all were gunning for the Games.

I readily admit that my proposition exists at the level of suspicion--but my arguments exist at the level of an investigation, which attempts to prove the proposition.

And as far as going 100% is concerned, I know sprinters don't always go 100%--in fact, I myself have not gone 100% yet this year, and am unlikely to. Data for Bolt are still valid, as the actual time is not the only relevant factor--also relevant is what he was racing for, his placement at the finish, who he was racing against, what he has to say about his race, how the race was run, etc.. Although many of those things even out, I will grant you that if he is clean, he is unquestionably among the best big-meet performers in recorded history. But there would be caveats to that, too--like FS'ing in the 2011 WC's. So much for the airtight "nails" argument.

And as far as the USA falling and Jamaica rising, what about the women? And again, what about the ROW, and the ROH (rest of history)?

Please shut up

Sprintgeezer wrote:

I readily admit that my proposition exists at the level of suspicion--but my arguments exist at the level of an investigation, which attempts to prove the proposition.

----------------------------------------------------

And as far as the USA falling and Jamaica rising, what about the women? And again, what about the ROW, and the ROH (rest of history)?

You what? Your arguments exist as pure speculation and that's as high as they will rise. Bolt is capable of 9.58 and the best he could muster this time was 9.63, so based on your arguments, I call that a decline.

If there was anything near validity in your offerings about widespread doping, you can bet that various agencies would have been already investigating the Jamaicans and it would be front page news on all the major networks. And please don't push the WADA would cover for them to save T&F arguemnt. Jamaica is not USA, where doping was allowed to exist for decades till the floodgates could not longer hold it back. Instead, we have former dopers such as Carl Lewis, raising false accusations. You can speculate and accuse all you want but in this past olympics, no Jamaicans tested positive during the olympics or the trials, which is more than I can say for the USA.

As far as the Jamaican women... you are accusing SAFP? In case you haven't noticed, Shelly's greatest asset is her bullet start, less her acceleration and definately not her speed endurance. The start! You cannot dope for that. That is a sign of superior coaching and training. Anyone with even limited knowledge of sprints could have predicted that she would not win the 200m against Felix. In fact, I predicted bronze for SAFP but I was wrong. Incidentally, I don't think Shelly has another Olympics in her and if she does, she won't be anywhere near the level she performs at now. If she has a kid, it's all over.

So yes, if that is what you're asking, at this point I think the USA has posseses a deeper level of talent in women's sprint than Jamaica does and I was on the edge of my seat cheering when they shattered the relay record. The berth however is a lot narrower than that of the men's, where Jamaica can sweep with various sprinters and no one runs from the 200m. There is the question of Jeter, who seems very inconsistent from day to day, but yeah, the stars lined up perfectly for them in the relay.

Concluding... If everyone is on drugs, that would still include the USA so there is still no reason other than talent for Jamaica to be where they are. At the end of the day, you still have a very small country dominating the Penn Relays and in turn, on a senior level. That shows depth and consistency and puts to rest your silly meanderings. I'll say it again. One should ask why the USA dominated sprints for so long but we all know the answer to that.

Whaat--

It is abundantly clear that you have no understanding of argumentation.

Also, I just can't bring myself to continue in my attempt to educate you, when you bring to the table such absurdities as "you cannot dope for the start".

Furthermore, you often use not only absurdities, but complete falsehoods as your basis for discussion. For instance, I never said that everybody is on drugs, as you suggest. In fact, I said the exact opposite--that I believed this was a clean year, except for Blake, and Bolt in the Games.

Lastly, 20-35 years ago, Jamaica really had some excellent sprinters. When you consider the size of the Jamaican population at that time, as well as the fact that Jamaica was at that point less than a third world country, their success was nothing short of amazing. If they had had access to a stable political system, running water, reliable electricity, and some semblance of public safety, like the USA had 20-30 years ago, IMHO Jamaica would have been at least as good as the USA in the sprints, on a per capita basis, if not better.

The apparent improvement by Jamaica is not due to American sprinting decline, as you suggest. It is due to a number of factors, including (minimal) social improvements in Jamaica, Jamaican population of the NCAA system, diffusion of coaching and training knowledge, etc.. IMO, it is due not only to those factors, but also to drugs, for the reasons I have articulated.

By suggesting patent absurdities, by predicating your arguments on demonstrably false propositions, and most of all by not knowing how to argue to the extent that you apparently don't even know the difference between a proposition and an argument, you have not appreciably weakened any of my arguments supporting the proposition that Bolt juiced in the month prior to the 2012 Games.

geezer,

You have not given me one name of any other Jamaican athlete with such big time differentials?. There are thousands of athletes in Jamaica. Not one name.

There could be 1000 track & field clubs in Jamaica & still you would probably ONLY see Racers track club producing athletes with the ability to drop such huge amounts of time. You would then STILL precede to accuse only the one club (Racers) in Jamaica of ONLY doing the doping & that club being the only one allowed to get away with it in that Country. Doesn't make any sense fella.

Bolt to this day has never tested positive for PED's. If Bolt raced for 100 years & NEVER TESTED POSITIVE, you would still convince yourself he has been doping the entire time after thousands of tests. Again, doesn't make any sense.

Times move on, athletes get faster, coaches innovate & think of new idea's etc. What does Bolt have in his favour?, his height for one and with that comes very long (the longest) connective/elastic tissues that store more energy which allows him to be propelled down the track more (40 strides). BINGO.

Now has Mills discovered a way to develop these tissues to be even more elastic, possibly, who knows... Too many factors, too many great minds in the sport that develop new idea's KEPT SECRETLY within the SAME club that seems to be having a significant affect on this clubs performances.

Had a good laugh reading your post...

Geezer, you can practice your argumentation theory all you want. It simply proves that have absolutely no proof that Bolt & company are doping and you are REACHING for reasons to make it so. You have no valid arguments and are sorely lacking in common sense. Here is a fine example of your mastery of argumentation:

True to form - you still defended your flawed reasoning.

You speak from a point of true ignorance regarding Jamaica, my friend. Seriously, do a little research or at least visit the place before you inject silly generalizations about the island and speak on it's history. Jamaica may not be rich but it's not what you think. Anyway, I'd rather leave you in your ignorance than spend time refuting all that.

Anyone reading through my posts on this thread will understand that you have skirted the fact that Jamaica dominates on a junior level without the aid of PEDs, which translates in the dominance you see now. I understand that this undercuts your doping arguments so please, ignore me and have at it.

So Bolt have never tested positive for PEDs. God save us. Maybe you should ask Marion Jones if she ever tested positive for PEDs.

Go Afrika wrote:

So Bolt have never tested positive for PEDs. God save us. Maybe you should ask Marion Jones if she ever tested positive for PEDs.

2006 EPO tests

The Washington Post, citing unidentified sources with knowledge of drug results from the USA Track and Field Championships in Indianapolis, IN, reported that on June 23, 2006, an "A" sample of Marion Jones' urine tested positive for Erythropoietin (EPO), a banned performance-enhancer. Jones withdrew from the Weltklasse Golden League meet in Switzerland, citing "personal reasons", and once more denied using performance-enhancing drugs. She retained lawyer Howard Jacobs, who has represented many athletes in doping cases, including Tim Montgomery and cyclist Floyd Landis. On September 6, 2006, Jones' lawyers announced that her "B" sample had tested negative, which cleared her from the doping allegations.

Admission of perjury during BALCO investigation

On October 5, 2007, Jones admitted to lying to federal agents under oath about her use of steroids prior to the 2000 Summer Olympics and pled guilty at the US District Court for the Southern District of New York (in White Plains).[3] She confessed to Judge Kenneth Karas that she had made false statements regarding the BALCO case and a check-fraud case. She was released on her own recognizance but was required to surrender both her US and Belizean passports, pending sentencing in January. Although a maximum sentence of five years could be imposed, the prosecution recommended no more than six months as part of Jones' plea bargain.[21]

After her legal admission of perjury, Jones held a press conference, where she finally publicly admitted taking steroids before the Sydney 2000 Summer Olympics and acknowledged that she had, in fact, lied when she previously denied steroid use in statements to the press, to various sports agencies, and—most significantly—to two grand juries. One was impaneled to investigate the Bay Area Laboratory Co-operative (BALCO) "designer steroid" ring, and the other was impaneled to investigate a check fraud ring involving many of the same parties from the BALCO case. As a result of these admissions, Jones accepted a two-year suspension from track and field competition issued by the United States Anti-Doping Agency, and announced her retirement from track and field on October 5, 2007.[3] She broke down in tears during the press conference as she tearfully apologized, saying "...with a great amount of shame...I stand before you and tell you that I have betrayed your trust...and you have the right to be angry with me... I have let my country down and I have let myself down."[21]

The US Anti-Doping Agency stated that their sanction "also requires disqualification of all her competitive results obtained after September 1, 2000, and forfeiture of all medals, results, points and prizes". On October 5, 2007, Jones formally pled guilty to lying to federal agents in the BALCO steroid investigation in the US District Court. On January 11, 2008, Jones was sentenced to 6 months in jail.[3] She began her sentence on March 7, 2008,[22] and was released on September 5, 2008.[23]

In the BALCO case, she had denied to federal agents her use of the steroid Tetrahydrogestrinone, known as "The Clear", or "THG", from 1999, but claimed she was given the impression she was taking a flaxseed oil supplement for two years while coach Trevor Graham supplied her with the substance. In a published letter, Jones said she had used steroids until she stopped training with Graham at the end of 2002. She said she lied when federal agents questioned her in 2003 because she panicked when they presented her with a sample of "The Clear".[24]

So was Chambers

Whaaat--

You really are a big-time fanboy!

BTW, I've been to Jam twice. It is exactly what I think it is.

You would know this if you had ever been.

I wonder what bolt was on when he ran 45.xx and 20.xx at 15. Obviously you peak at 15. Surely there is no way you can improve via maturation and training. The only possible answer is bolt doping... that is how ignorant you sound. After your greatest hits of non sense on these message boards I'm amazed your not embarressed to post.

You don't need conspiracy theories on this topic. He is the fastest junior of all time. He is the fastest senior of all time. If he's doping, so is everyone else. Either way he is still the best.

Sprintgeezer wrote:

Whaaat--

You really are a big-time fanboy!

BTW, I've been to Jam twice. It is exactly what I think it is.

You would know this if you had ever been.

What, no running water in your resort? LOL Where'd you visit? Spend quite a bit of time there myself and all over the island. Own some real estate there.

"If he's doping, so is everyone else. Either way he is still the best."

This is just about the first thing that any of you fanboys has said that has made any sense at all. The first part is of course incorrect, but the second part is unassailable fact.

Bolt could be the one. I mean, THE ONE. He should have crushed a sub-9.58 in Beijing when he had the chance. This 9.63 was essentially just as good as the 9.58, except for the first 20m where he lost .04 relative to his 9.58, .02 on the RT alone.

In 1988, Johnson could have gone 9.77, maybe 9.76 or 9.75 with some more encouragement. That would have lasted until Powell's 9.74 in September of 2007, which would have been almost 20 years. His margin over Lewis' 9.92 WR would have been around 0.15

Bolt's margin over Powell and Gay is in the .10-.15 range, and more than .15 over Blake.

2028 may seem like a reasonable year for someone to break 9.58, since Bolt, unlike Johnson, has had multiple opportunities to run his very best, which has been that 9.58

However, it's not just the lead he has over everyone else that is critical--it is the time itself, in absolute terms. 9.76 is one thing. 9.58 is almost 0.20 faster, and in the 100m, that is absolutely huge. Consider that it is the difference between 9.8 and 10

I still maintain that 9.58 will last your lifetime and mine, unless Bolt somehow manages to best it himself.

Amazing. The One.

Bolt's RT was worse then in Beijing because he realized that he was not a good starter and practice wasn't helping. Most importantly, it put him in danger of FS and you know his history of that.

The way he's been talking lately, "no goals", yadda..yadda, I think you are right. The 9.58 will stand for a very long time unless he gets the hunger again in Rio. By then he will be peaking so I really hope he blows it out and retires.

His retirement will probably break another world record as in most celebrated by his competition :)

9. f'ing 58! Yeah, consider me a fanboy just for that.

9.58 isn't that fast SG.

Bolt slowed noticeably at 95m and didn't lean, cost him .05 or thereabouts. Which shows how disgustingly fast he is, and how disgustingly doped he is.

Lets assume Gay got his Shanghai 09 start in Berlin. Gay goes 9.65 easily. Lets assume Gay gets all of this with a 1.5 tailwind. 9.60.

Lets assume Blake gets some more shoulder rotation and/or a touch more ground contact past CoG and maintains his frequency and similar conditions to Gay above. 9.65-9.60.

Now lets assume a 6'0"-6'2" version of these two men comes around in the next 10-20 years with improved track surfaces, shoe tech and Training. 9.55 is doable for these individuals and possibly sub 19.

I think Bolt is done breaking records he is now officially too old AND isn't taking the rest of this season very seriously. He will be 27 next year and his decline will start going from slight to very noticeable. His injury risk will shoot up. If he does a 300/400/LJ he's toast.

By Rio Blake will be a real beast, he could even have the 200 WR. Bolt could at best be looking at 2 silvers and a Gold in the 4x1. This would still make him the best Sprinter ever. He will have gotten 3 Olympics and 8-9 years of top sprinting, and 12-13 years of World class sprinting. Unprecedented.

concur,

the record wont last 10 years ...

as whatever is new out there is darm well good .

nearly same amount of men have broken 10 seconds

since 2005 than the 25 years before that .says alot ....

and why has serious weightlifting been put on backfoot

by alot of sprinters ,

was it this with maybe some plymetrics and before that steroids the

next advance in sprintings evolution but now deemed not so important .

what could this next step be ,so blindly obvious .

just like where saint kitts and nevis relay team suddenly come out of. if to good to be true usually is .

gemili will break 10 seconds next year ,bar injury ,more than likely

and maybe closely followed by some asian athlete .

so some more non west africans breaking 10 seconds.

yet more flame to fire .

"There is no question in my mind that he did a high-quality cycle before the Games."

I re-iterate this. Bolt 2012 displayed the same trajectory as did Johnson 1988. US sprint coach Rogers at around 48:37 of the 9.79 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Skg3-eoxq4

In London, it was back...big time.