Alan Webb: Can Anyone Describe the Plyometric Program Used by Scott Raczko as Described by Abdi Bile's Coach, James Cook

Wow! Some people were a little bit off the subject, but at least they mentioned plyos. What are you talking about man?!? This is niether relevant, nor impressive.

Interesting idea, never accured to me about the connection between shotputting and the quads.

AMEN!!! It blows my mind how people watch Webb finish strong, and then the first thing they attribute this ability to is PLYOS! I just don't understand how this association comes about in people's minds. Plyometrics probably make the smallest difference of any training element typically employed. It is one of the LAST things I would attribue Webb's finish to.

John Patrick O'Connell wrote:

But what of the runners who cannot run 50 second 400's? This is where the plyometrics add power, etc.

No, that's where genetics impose a limit on performance. Plyometrics are not going to improve speed enough to make an appreciable difference here. It's mostly about genetics

Bullshit wrote:

Gebrselassie did not run 1:46 in training, asshole.

Do you exhibit such eloquence every day, or is this a one time occurrence?

According to Tim Hutchings of Eurosport, a source I imagine has quite a bit more credibility than an anonymous message board poster who refers to himself as the byproduct of human defecation, Gebreselassie ran a 1:46 800 meters in training prior to his 1996 Olympic 10,000 meter gold medal run. This is not hard to believe in light of his Atlanta workout prior to the Games of 18 400's in 56 each with the last 3 in 53.

But then, perhaps such evidence escapes the nonexistent mental faculties of excrement.

Mr. Know-it-all wrote:

Plyometrics probably make the smallest difference of any training element typically employed. It is one of the LAST things I would attribue Webb's finish to.

However small a difference, it is a difference all the same, and with races at the top level like the Sydney 10K with .09 seconds between gold and silver, every training aspect counts.

Tell me, if plyometrics are so insignificant, why would El Guerrouj, Gebrselassie, Coe, Bile, Krummenacker, Webb, Cruz, et. al. WASTE TIME (because that is a waste of time if they do indeed contribute almost nothing to the finish) performing these drills?

If you read Sub-Four by Chris LEar, you will see what great emphasis Webb, and by extension, Bile, put on plyometric drills. To speculate that Webb is an "aerobic monster" is fishing for an explanation.

Webb ran 30 something minutes for 10K, over a minute behind what won NCAA's. If you point to perhaps a more difficult course (although I doubt it; Ritz won in 8 degree frost), observe Webb's 13:46 Penn Relays 5K win. Holding back or not, a 13:46 does NOT bespeak the aerobic capabilities of someone capable of closing world class 1500's. Even if he is faster over 5K since Penn, the aerobic abilities still cannot explain it all.

That explosive, dynamic strength is the result of STRENGTH WORK in the form of core exercises and plyometrics.

To repeat, you simply cannot negate the importance of this work after looking at its implementation into so many programs of the SUPER elite. Raczko, Peter Coe, Kada, Hermens, and other coaches ALL speak about the importance of plyometric strength work.

If it was as insignificant as you make it out to be, the best athletes the world has ever seen would not waste valuable training time AND risk injury!!

John Patrick O'Connell wrote:

[quote]Bullshit wrote:

According to Tim Hutchings of Eurosport, a source I imagine has quite a bit more credibility than an anonymous message board poster who refers to himself as the byproduct of human defecation, Gebreselassie ran a 1:46 800 meters in training prior to his 1996 Olympic 10,000 meter gold medal run.

When and where did Tim Hutchings ever claim that, you anonymous name hijacking loser? Let's hear it?

No, that's where genetics impose a limit on performance. Plyometrics are not going to improve speed enough to make an appreciable difference here. It's mostly about genetics[/quote]

Genetics is about as much of a lame excuse as saying all the Africans are on drugs, even though they get tested just as much if not more than Americans/Europeans due to the stigma of being drug cheats.

Does Webb have genetic talent to be a world class runner? Of course, he's skinny. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't make a good football player. People forget that the guy used to swim twice a day every day and had Olympic swimming aspirations. Kind of like the Africans with running as hard as they can all the time until a coach spots them at a cross country race.

Webb has a great base from all the swimming, the finances, drive, coach, body type and motivation to be the best. Thus, after several long hard years of dedication and sacrifice we see him as he is today. It's all about PROPER work, not trying to be like Peter Snell and run 100 miles a week at 6:00 pace or like the Kenyan's and run at a sub 5:00 pace at altitude every day, but what works best for him.

joe can you give us any specific examples of plyometric exercises?

point counterpoint wrote:

Quoting Gerard Hartmann, from the June '04 issue of Running Times:

"It was after Paula finished fourth in the 10k at the 2000 Olympic Games that her coach came to me in an emotional state...blah, blah, blah...We brought this approach to Paula Radcliffe's training program after the Olympic games and it was less than a year later that we saw she won her first world title."

Couple things:

I bet her coach loved reading this crap.

I have yet to see her close in 59 or run 3:58.

30 minute 10 k runners have always been capable of 2:15 marathons, especially under perfect conditions on a perfect course. Paula was the first woman that believed it, is all.

Hartman should work in promotions. Why does everyone know this guy's name but most have no clue who has been designing her workouts since she was a junior?

Rarely do I see Joe Rubio or any coach worth their salt dropping names. But, personal flexibility coaches? Geez, they are the last people we need to hear from.

Maybe it's the nose strips? I am skipping and hopping my fat ass all the way to the drug store to pick some up for my next race.

On Webb: When I learned Webb was running with Dowling I knew it was just a matter of time before all hell broke loose.

Bullshit wrote:

Gebrselassie did not run 1:46 in training, asshole.

1:46 is not a fast 800.

Of course Geb can run 1:46.

The guy can run sub 3:30 if he so desired.

Might plyos complement aerobic training by strengthening the muscles and thereby protecting the connective tissues from overuse injury?

Any benefit to using plyos to maintain or improve running economy during periods of heavy aerobic training?

Zenpukuchi wrote:

Might plyos complement aerobic training by strengthening the muscles and thereby protecting the connective tissues from overuse injury?

Any benefit to using plyos to maintain or improve running economy during periods of heavy aerobic training?

hill running, long strides, are all 99.999% of us need.

well, that, nose strips and boy scout socks.

Let me make it emphatically clear that I DON'T GIVE TWO SHITS how many elite runners endorse plyometrics. I do not mean to attribue their success solely to genetic superiority, but UNDERSTAND that all of the world-beaters you mentioned were born with a certain capacity that the rest of us (AND 'US' INCLUDES SOME DAMN GOOD RUNNERS)

were not born with. There are far more crappy runners who do plyometrics than there are elite runner who do them, so obviously plyos do not make the difference between an elite runner and a 'damn good' runner. Now, since elite runners are not distinguished from any other class of runner by their use of plyometric training, then THE ENDORSEMENT OF PLYOMETRICS BY ELITE ATHLETES IS NO MORE MEANINGFUL THAN ENDORSEMENT OR CRITICISM BY THE WORST ATHLETES! Case in point, it doesn't matter WHO does plyometrics.

You are absolutely right. Webb has good aerobic capacity, but his success at 1500m (as well as his strong finish) is largely attributable to his SPPED. But this speaks nothing about the validity of plyometrics.

Absolutely not. Neither plyometrics nor 'core exercises' (LOL @ 'core exercises') can develop that kind of speed. Speed, especially in distance runners, is almost entirely attributable to genetics. You forget that Webb was splitting 48 as a high school sophomore. Webb, as well as every other every other fast runner you mentioned, WAS BORN FAST! Plyometrics had SHIT to do with thier speed.

Oh yes, you absolutely can. And it is laughable how you include Rackzo in this catagory of 'super elite' coaches

when he has produced exactly one athlete who has been world class for a matter of weeks.

Lydiard wrote:

Genetics is about as much of a lame excuse as saying all the Africans are on drugs, even though they get tested just as much if not more than Americans/Europeans due to the stigma of being drug cheats.

LYDIARD, you couldn't have taken my statement about genetics more out of context. I attributed ONE aspect of distance running performance - SPEED - to genetics. The point is was that plyometrics does not turn 54 sec. Dathan Ritzenhein into 48 sec. Alan Webb. The reason Webb is faster than Ritz is because he was born faster- not because he does plyos.

More Bullshit wrote:

When and where did Tim Hutchings ever claim that, you anonymous name hijacking loser? Let's hear it?

I wonder how it is that I hijacked any names when you (unless you are the original Bull----(expletive deleted)) have apparently hijacked a name?

1996 Zurich 5,000 meters, Gebrselassie vs. Komen. Tim Hutchings and Steve Cram commentating. Hutchings was talking about Gebrselassie racing an indoor 800m during indoors 1996 and noted he lacked the legspeed to stay with them. He then observed that he had run 1:46 in training, presumably in an Ethiopian team time trial.

To conclude, be nicer to yourself. Surely you can envision a name that portrays yourself in a better light than that of defecatory waste products.

mplatt wrote:

Bullshit wrote:

Gebrselassie did not run 1:46 in training, asshole.

1:46 is not a fast 800.

Of course Geb can run 1:46.

The guy can run sub 3:30 if he so desired.

Mr. mplatt, you must have some remarkable credentials, because I do not even know many elite runners who dimiss consecutive 53 second laps as "not fast."

John Patrick O'Connell wrote:

1996 Zurich 5,000 meters, Gebrselassie vs. Komen. Tim Hutchings and Steve Cram commentating. Hutchings was talking about Gebrselassie racing an indoor 800m during indoors 1996 and noted he lacked the legspeed to stay with them. He then observed that he had run 1:46 in training, presumably in an Ethiopian team time trial.

More bullshit to support bullshit. Hutchings never observed Geb running a 1:46 800 in a time trial or anywhere else. You busted yourself making up facts again.

For a self proclaimed "know it all," you have astonishingly poor reading comprehension. I said super elite ATHLETES, not coaches. Raczko is not a super elite athlete, but your reasoning is absurd. Rcihard Smith is another of his athletes, and Webb has been world class for more than one week.

Also, the amount of time one spends at a world class level is irrelevant. Bekele ran two world records in 7 days. I bet you there are times throughout the year he is not capable of such times. This does not mean he is not world class.

A 1500 meter runner only needs to be world class for 3 minutes and 30 seconds about 10 times a year.