Aerobic Base, no distance running, possible? Bob Schul, Igoli desciples?

Igoloi, sorry

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I would be cautious about the elliptical, stair stepper, etc. You may be just aggravating the injury. How is his hip strength? Strengthening my hips helped my speed and hill running ability. Check this out:

http://footloose.runnersworld.com/2009/04/to-prevent-leg-injuries-look-to-the-hips-not-the-feet.html

since mitochondrial adaptation are a function of genetics, intensity and volume, you really can do well w/ a smart mix of quality work. you'll just need to go easy on the racing to delay the peak. meets as workouts and few all out races until late season.

one important idea is to keep him off turns.

the second idea is to set up something going

alternate directions, example 10x300m on 2'

including one turn/rep w/ relatively short rest.

the last idea is to realize he can do varied pace work away from the track, on grass. example 30x100-120m on infield or along soccer field sidelines.

certainly interval based training and relatively low volume can get a talented HS runner to top 50 US at 800/1600. ultimately speed becomes essential anyway so getting your athlete to 50 4x400m speed is really setting up collegiate level middle distance running. no reason to let go of the 1600m. I would guess <4:20 is possible if the kid is up for some work.

the tracking issue can be solved as can any nutritional

issue which might be influencing his inflammation and repair of meniscus.

if you'd like to email for more advice, feel free.

my guess is a goal of 1:56 800m is possible.

ultimate frisbee is a great training, especially if the field is football size and sides are limited to 5 players.

dsrunner@juno.com

Can you do like 20 minute tempos? or tempo intervals? Those are the real punch for mid-distance base training anyway

cant believe it wrote:

Can you do like 20 minute tempos?

Given that the OP said a two-mile run irritated the knee, I'm guessing that a 20min tempo would be a poor idea...

I've given this example before, but once trained a pentathlete mostly by giving a variety of interrupted work for her aerobic base. She built up to 80 x 110y, barefoot on the football field--45sec for each run-and-rest (r&r ended up about equal length). That got her five miles (at somewhere around 6:00/mi pace) in an hour, and she finished "full of runnnig," not tired. If she'd tried to run five miles continuously, it probably would have taken her close to the same time!--and she'd have been exhausted.

She later medalled in the EAIAW pentathlon, primarily on the strength of blowing away the field on the 800.

PS: It's actually "Igloi."

Thanks

I've been reading up on Igloi (correct spelling now...Thanks Lease!) training. I'm thinking of something that looks kind of like this

1. Aerobic conditioning done mostly with tempo intervals. I'm thinking about slapping an HR monitor on the kid so that the tempo intervals don't get out of control. He is probably going to be doing a bunch of these early season, and if he does them too hard, I fear burnout or other injuries.

We'll try a second modality of aerobic conditioning where he runs short intervals of 100-200m with short rest. Once again, these could easily go too fast. We're going to have to focus on mechanics. I'll likely time some, but not all of the reps to make sure that he is around mile RP

2. Speed development. This could be done 2-3 times per week early on in small amounts. Im thinking of sprints up the stadium ramp (about 35m at about 7-8% grade). We will also probably do stuff like hard stride (maybe 800m pace) down the side of the football field, walk across the back of the end zone. I've been a long time fan of 150s at 400m goal pace with a slow walk back recovery for my sprinters. Once fitness starts to improve we might start doing workouts of 4-6 x 150 @ 19-20 seconds.

3. Speed endurance won't come in for a couple of months (late march/early april, depending on how things are progressing). To build to the point where he is ready to run hard, 800 specific workouts, I am thinking of gradually increasing the distance of the mile RP 100s-200s 300-500m with sligthly longer (but not very long) recoveries. I'm thinking that workouts like 4 x 500 @ about 85 with equal recovery will be a good transition to workouts 5-6 x 300 @ goal pace with 3-4 min recovery.

2-3 times during the later stages of the season, I'd like him to run a workout of 3 x 800 pretty much at best effort. Recoveries could be up to 20 minutes. I've had pretty good luck using that one with athletes who don't have any major races coming up. Spring break is in mid April and we have a 2 week break from racing at that point. He should be ready and could benefit from a couple of very hard, specific session at that time.

Thoughts?

You say "without getting injured again", however everything you have mentioned in your post seems geared to simply working around a condition that has not been solved. If he is having issues running a continuous 2 miles there is obviously a very serious underlying issue.

Your athlete is still extremely young, especially to be having such a knee issue. I think I would be recommending to him to not race at all. If he trains let it be any training that doesn't aggravate his knee whether it be lighter training, whatever. Without working to find the underlying problem, for all you or anyone else knows even the crosstraining that he is doing is perpetuating the problem though with less pain (which is possibly just because you have taken out the impact stress of running). Here's why I say this. A lot of crosstraining that is used in place of running really is so similar to running in many of the effects on the body and could possibly just be compounding underlying issues. As an example, running is already a very quad intensive activity. You are adding in biking but it is still a quad dominant activity, hip flexors in fixed and flexed position, back rounded. Then add in the knees and legs being locked into a somewhat fixed plane. Same with the elliptical. These activities might be less taxing from an impact standpoint but they are not providing any break from what could be impacting your athlete in terms of possible imbalances.

You also mention that you believe that he is having patella tracking issues yet he is doing bodyweight circuits and resistance training. How much is being paid attention to form and tracking on these exercises. If he is not showing proper tracking in running, I'd also be surprised to see if he was even doing it in a slower controlled setting such as the weight room and as a young high schooler I'd actually be surprised to see proper form being executed or displayed at all whether purposely or involuntarily. I'd also put money on your young athlete doing his squats in a half or quarter squat style which typically puts more force on the knee in slowing down the eccentric portion of the squat movement, as opposed to a full depth squat, thereby leading to even more quad dominance. I don't know if this is the case but I'd wager the above has certainly not helped the overall situation this kid is in.

But the main focus should be on getting himself fixed. It would seem that his long-term health is not really being considered.

Agree with all. This is why we took complete rest after it was obvious he wouldn't be back during cross, and when training resumed, it was 100% cross training. He sprints and cross trains pain free. We went the entire month of december and the first week of Jan with zero running. The only hint of pain was during last week's 2 mile continuous run. The athlete didn't describe it as pain, rather that he "felt" the knee. I used the word pain to describe it here, because I didn't really know what he had going on. He doesn't "feel" it at all doing other training modalities.

Multiple trips to doctor, check

PT, check

hip strengthening exercises, check. Started during the fall.

exercises for VMO, check, started during the fall

The tracking issue is only my opinion. Docs have found nothing. The way in which the injury happened was totally random and capricious in nature, but there is not any evidence of structural dammage in the joint. Trust me, the last thing I want for this guy is long lasting problems. He is the most all around talented boy I've had in a long time. He was our top discus thrower last year and jumped 5'4" in the HJ. I can see him being a great decathlete 5-6 years down the road.

I found the site interesting and it reads that you do not understand the Effort-interval system. The Igloi system. on my web site, bobschul.net you will find sample workouts which were for my athletes at Wright State. (Send me an email, it is on the site. They are not difficult. There is no sprinting like sprinters do but speed during the sets is based on the capable speed of the athlete. Workouts can go on for ten to twelve miles for a top athlete and the sets are different speeds as well as different speeds with-in the set. Obviously you would not train your athlete that hard.

My training consisted of a morning workout of 100's, 150's and 200's with short walk intervals. 10 to 20 meters between each. Before the games I was doing 72 of the various distances and there were different speeds used.

In the afternoon I went from 100's up to 400's in various sets and used different speeds for the sets and also in the set itself. T run 10 x 300 meters in :45 with a 20 meter walk was doable during the summer of '64.

As you may have read I did a sunday workout starting in the Spring of 64 and continuing throughout the summer. This consisted of 20 times 400 yards with a walk of 60 meters and a jog back to the start of 60 meters. I ran three in 60 seconds with each fourth in 58. (yes not all were exact as at times I was a little fast or a little slow, but never more than .3 seconds) On the 20th one I ran all-out and for months I ran in the :54 to :54.5.

I say this to show what can be done with this type of training and to say it is a slow process covering months if not years of training.

This is why I love letsrun, we get olympic champions posting in threads! I doubt kobe or lebron ever do such things. Thanks for the insight bob.

Thank you, Mr. Schul.

I was not trying to mimic your training methods precisely, rather set up a system that I think would work for my guy, using some of your/igloi's methods.

Thank you for the offer to e-mail you directly. I will take you up on it.

To lease:

I recall seeing your earlier message a few years ago about the female athlete and the 80 X 110 yd workout. This workout sounds intriguing, even if it would be a bit on the mentally taxing side. Would you have time for a few questions about it?

- Were the 80 repeats (the run & rest) performed non-stop? That is, all 80 done consecutively without a break?

- Was the rest period a standing rest or a jogging rest?

- How often did she do the 80 X 110 yd workout?

- If I recall correctly from a few years ago, this athlete also ran cross country for you. How did she do in XCC?

Thanks for your help.

CoachB,

Have you had your athlete check into using a Cho-Pat knee strap?

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