What should a 4:00 miler be able to run for 800m?

malmo wrote:

800-1500 specialist wrote:

Malmo, I was going to start a thread asking for your advise but I see this thread has grabbed your attention so I'll ask here.

I'm a big advocate of a yearly progression of miles but focus on the 800 and mile. I was wondering how high is too high.

I'm sitting around 100mpw right now, especially from summer until the end of winter. Will I see improvements in my 800-1500 pr's by increasing over the next 2-3 years by increasing my mileage to 140-150?

Why would an 800-1500 guy want to run 140-150?

It might be OK to top out at 115-125 for three or four weeks at a time, but you should probably never go above 115.

90-115 is plenty for an 800/1500 runner.

Glad I asked this malmo. I find that very interesting. I think I'm going to stay around 100mpw for a pretty long time but concentrate on having very good quality days.(i.e my workouts, and "longer" runs on my doubles) Thanks for your input.

And for the record, I'm chasing the "B" standard for the 1500 this year.

7:20.81 Justin Hedin (1:51.16), Brian Weirich (1:50.24), James Heiner (1:52.03), Miles Batty (1:47.38)

Batty split 1:47.38 on his relay leg at Penn last year so I don't think his 1:49 open PR accurately reflects his ability.

In regards to the question, bare minimum 1:55 sounds right. Average for a 4 min guy is probably around 1:51.

Mrs. Obvious wrote:

At least 2:00... ?

You are aware that a mile is longer than 2 x 800 m, right? If you run 2:00 for 800m, you will run slower than 4:00 for the mile (even if you run 2:00 for the second 800 that immediately follows your first 800)

Thanks for playing.

Masters' official PR might be 1:54.6, but he's closed at least one 1500m race in the 1:51-1:52 range (IC4A 1500 in 2010, I think). I just don't think he's run an open 800 in a while.

I could easily make this into a long conversation, but I think most would agree that it is about 1:51.

Btw, someone like Ritz is probably capable of running 4:00 with no better than 1:55 800m speed. He probably could not get must under 4 becasue sub-4 milers go out or come back at close to his 800m PR. Most fast milers are pretty quick, sometimes they have week 400/800 PRs on paper becasue those are not events they focus on.

I remember a discussion from a long time ago where someone stated that Rupp was only 1:57 800m guy becasue they found a result from his junior year in H.S. You know that could be correct becasue he also ran a 4:01 mile in H.S.

Tim Bayley runs a 4:00 mile and ran a 1:46 800m but he's more a 800m guy.

a bro in the kno wrote:

Masters' official PR might be 1:54.6, but he's closed at least one 1500m race in the 1:51-1:52 range (IC4A 1500 in 2010, I think). I just don't think he's run an open 800 in a while.

Funny story, the week before masters went sub4 he broke 2 minutes in the 800 for the first time, which is currently his 800 pr. he talked about it in a lets run interview.

Ritz could squeak under 4 minutes. There is no god damn way your averaging 4:07 pace for 3.1 miles without being able to run 3:59.

RealTalk wrote:

Ritz could squeak under 4 minutes. There is no god damn way your averaging 4:07 pace for 3.1 miles without being able to run 3:59.

I would agree that Ritz has been capable of running under 4 minutes for the mile in the past and that it is possible he could do so in the future, but he has NEVER run 3.1 miles averaging 4:07 pace, and it is unlikely that he ever will do so.

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

RealTalk wrote:

Ritz could squeak under 4 minutes. There is no god damn way your averaging 4:07 pace for 3.1 miles without being able to run 3:59.

I would agree that Ritz has been capable of running under 4 minutes for the mile in the past and that it is possible he could do so in the future, but he has NEVER run 3.1 miles averaging 4:07 pace, and it is unlikely that he ever will do so.

Uhhh, his 12:56 5000m PR is 4:07.x per 1600m. Technically you're right I guess since that's more like 4:08-9 per mile, but still. I wish the guy would give the mile a go once or twice a summer. He's been in shape to go under 4:00, but I suppose he doesn't care much about it. With a 12:56 and 60:00, I'm not sure I would either.

offering some numbers for the topic ( you can reject them as is your whim )

for a 4'00.00 guy with various 400s

45 -> 1'44.6 , 3'41.0 , 8'16.6 , 14'54.8

46 -> 1'45.6 , 3'41.2 , 8'13.2 , 14'44.6

47 -> 1'46.6 , 3'41.3 , 8'09.9 , 14'34.5

48 -> 1'47.6 , 3'41.5 , 8'06.5 , 14'24.3

49 -> 1'48.7 , 3'41.7 , 8'03.2 , 14'14.1

50 -> 1'49.7 , 3'41.9 , 7'59.8 , 14'03.9

51 -> 1'50.7 , 3'42.1 , 7'56.5 , 13'53.8

52 -> 1'51.7 , 3'42.3 , 7'53.1 , 13'43.6

53 -> 1'52.7 , 3'42.5 , 7'49.8 , 13'33.4

54 -> 1'53.7 , 3'42.7 , 7'46.4 , 13'23.2

55 -> 1'54.7 , 3'42.9 , 7'43.0 , 13'13.0

56 -> 1'55.7 , 3'43.0 , 7'39.7 , 13'02.9

i'll stop there

56.0 is likely limit with concomitant 1'55.7

the 51/1'50.7 & 52/1'51.7 are around the median of that list & for no strong reason other than that, i'd start about there

There is no way in hell someone only capable of 56.x could run 4:00. That's usually the requirement to run under 2:00 in the 800m! I also seriously doubt any 4:00 miler couldn't run faster than 1:55. I think that's WAY slow. 1:52-1:53.0 more like it.

As for average, I think the only way to settle this would be to look at 20 or more milers and compare times along with how frequently they ran 800m races. I would guess 1:50 or 1:51 though.

I know a lot more guys who ran 1:51 than I know 4:00 milers. In fact, the only 4:00 guy I know ran 1:49, but the other 1:49/1:50 guys I know are in the 4:02-4:07 range. All of them looking at 50. 400 speed. Anyway, 1:51 just seems slow as an average for guys who can go sub-4:00, unless it's guys in the midst of monster 5k training whose strength just happens to let them run sub-4:00.

When Eamon Coughlin broke 4:00 indoor as a Master, he ran 1:54.5 in Gainesville a week or two before. That's about as slow as you can be, and break 4.

Guppy wrote:There is no way in hell someone only capable of 56.x could run 4:00. That's usually the requirement to run under 2:00 in the 800m! I also seriously doubt any 4:00 miler couldn't run faster than 1:55. I think that's WAY slow. 1:52-1:53.0 more like it

err...

you did see the comment about "limit"

by that we are talking tergat-like endurance which might be best there ever was

56 is referring to a tergat

As for average, I think the only way to settle this would be to look at 20 or more milers and compare times along with how frequently they ran 800m races. I would guess 1:50 or 1:51 though.

yes

or you coud look at that list & think about it for a while & make an educated guess...

Titan wrote:

Didnt Al Sal run 4:00?

I believe he ran 3:44 for 1500m which is about a 4:02 mile.

tergat's line of fit for '97 may have been ~

53.6 / 1'51.4 -> 3'36.1 , 3'52.7 , 7'27.8 , 12'45.7 , 26'23.8

off that 400/mile & 800/mile ratio, i'd suggest realistic 400 & 800 limit for a 4'00 is

~ 55.3 & 1'54.9

Guppy wrote:

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

I would agree that Ritz has been capable of running under 4 minutes for the mile in the past and that it is possible he could do so in the future, but he has NEVER run 3.1 miles averaging 4:07 pace, and it is unlikely that he ever will do so.

Uhhh, his 12:56 5000m PR is 4:07.x per 1600m.

It is one thing to be incorrect, but it is quite another to be incorrect while attempting to erroneously correct another. Ritz's 5000m pb averages 4:08.4 per 1600. Of course, if you are figuring out per mile, it is slower than that. Please educate yourself before attempting to correct somebody who is impeccably accurate.

Jesse was indeed a friend wrote:

Guppy wrote:

Uhhh, his 12:56 5000m PR is 4:07.x per 1600m.

It is one thing to be incorrect, but it is quite another to be incorrect while attempting to erroneously correct another. Ritz's 5000m pb averages 4:08.4 per 1600. Of course, if you are figuring out per mile, it is slower than that. Please educate yourself before attempting to correct somebody who is impeccably accurate.

I stand corrected.