LV 3:59.72!!!!!!

Ryun while great, if around now would not be making an Olympic team. Webb was a better HS runner than Ryun. Therefore, Ryun isn't even in the conversation for best ever.

odelltrclan wrote:

Also consider that Ryun was rated as the 4th best miler in the WORLD as a senior.

Somehow I have a feeling LV will not make the top 10 rankings on a worldwide basis in any of his events.

We are talking apples and oranges here.

Lucas is great. And, by the way for some of the posters on these boards. It is my understanding he has dual citizenship. He can compete for the USA and considers himself and American but also has citizenship from Lithuania as well.

Quite frankly, one significant issue that comes up HERE, is that the world-class milers today are far beyond any of those who competed when Ryun was a high school senior.

Using such a statistic as grounds to claim that Ryun completely overshadows Lukas' accomplishments is doing nothing more than punishing Lukas for being in the company of better runners.

Exactly

Then just say that Jim Ryun is the greatest HS miler ever or he is your favorite HS runner of all time. Ryun's accomplishment was absolutely incredible for his time and all of that and will always make him one of the Mt. Rushmore figures of HS distance running. BUT we are talking about an entire career over a variety of distances and not just the mile. Lukas' credential have not been equalled by anyone at the US HS level...it's just a fact.

The Facts: Lukas is an 8X National Champion (XC and Track), 2X Dream Mile Champion, perfect in Cross Country for his career (he would have won 3 Footlockers had he not fallen and injured himself right before the end of his freshman year), an epic NXN/Footlocker double (which hasn't been accomplished before), only lost three races to HSers (4 if you cound the MWDG mile which came shortly afte beating the Footlocker champion in the deuce and it wasn't a full effort), sub 8:30, sub 4 (2nd ever in HS only), you could argue 5 national records (3K, 3200, 2M, 5K indoor).

They can't argue Ryun was the greatest HS mile runner ever, because Webb has that title. Webb was faster indoor and outdoor at the mile. End of story.

I agree...Webb is the greatest US HS miler of all time, but at least there's an argument for Ryun. Not so much when it comes to the greatest HS Distance runner of all time.

LV's last two years have been amazing, he set his goals and accomplishment them. His future looks bright and I can't to watch him compete for Oregon. He did what the meet directors, sponsers, and sports guru wanted him to do...and more. What more could he of done to gain your repect?

i don't think i'd consider him number 1 all time. lets look at it.

XC

Ritz faced stiffer competition and won 2 XC Championships. He also got the Bronze at World's. LV won 2 (yeah i know he won the team thing too but that hasn't been around for that long, winning 2 XC titles in one year just shows that you are the best XC runner that year, doesn't really add much prestige when comparing top HS'ers ever as far as i'm concerned). So purely XC i'd say Ritz is best with LV probably 2nd best.

Track

Mile - Since LV went 3:59 in a HS race i'll put him clearly above Liquori and Danielson. So he's definitely 3rd best Miler ever but still FAR behind Ryun and Webb.

2 Mile - LV has the record. The one thing to consider is Webb ran 8:44/45 all alone indoors (Brannen was never really in it) and dropped 6 seconds in the mile that year from indoors to outdoors. If Webb had run the 2 Mile late in the Outdoor Season the 2 Mile Record would probably have been sub 8:30 for the past 10 years and I'm not so sure LV would have it now. But thats a hypothetical so we'll never know either way. LV is the best, while still keeping in mind that Webb didn't run it and had a very real chance of running faster than LV.

5k - Rupp has the record and it is about 30 seconds faster than what LV ran indoors. That is a lot of time to make up from indoors to outdoors. It's possible though. So just like in the 2 mile we don't know if Webb woulda put the record out of LV's reach, in the 5k we don't know if LV coulda beat Rupp's record.

I don't think it is entirely fair to say that people like Ryun and Lindgren competed with the best in the world so they can never be touched by current athletes. That was a different era, an era in which it was possible for a freak High Schooler to match the international elite. Thats just not the case anymore and I don't think it ever will be again. The great thing about track and field is that the times spell it all out in black and white. Granted, tracks have improved a lot since the 60's so that does make comparing the athletes of those days with today's athletes a bit harder. But to make it easy lets take the old athletes out of the equation and just focus on modern athletes (i.e. the fastest runners in HS history)

Conclusion:

I could care less about German being young because this is about what they did in High School, it doesn't matter what German did when he was finally 18 and had a bunch of months of college training. LV defintely is over German cuz he has a faster mile, 2 mile, and better in XC. LV is definitely better at track than Ritz, although not as good in XC. LV is definitely not as good as Webb in track who ran 1:47/2:24/3:53/8:44i. LV does beat Webb in XC. But nothing LV has done comes close to a 3:53 mile which is easily the best time-performance in high school history. 8:29 doesn't touch 3:53. LV does have the best championship record but outside of having to beat Cheserek a couple times he didn't have to beat guys anywhere near the level of Webb and Hall for Ritz and of Hall and Ritz for Webb. There are also more championships available to win now (2 XC's a year, 5k indoors) so its not fair to just say LV won more national titles. If there had been two xc titles in 2000 Ritz woulda without a doubt won them both and maybe would have won them both in 1999 as well.

In terms of just modern day athletes I'd say:

1. Webb

2. LV

3. Ritz

4/5. German/Rupp

Track is an international sport. What are his best times in the 800m, 1500m, and 5000m? What is his highest position in the World Junior Championships and World Cross Country?

@He's Up There

I think you did a pretty good job with your comparisons, but there are at least two fundamental problems I have.

1. You are essentially dichotomizing Track and XC and then base your arugment off a track vs XC when this is an argument based off the totality of a distance career and not track only or XC only.

2. You play a lot of shoulda/coulda/woulda. While I think it is highly likely that Webb could have run under 8:30 the fact is he didn't and he just doesn't get credit for it. It just doesn't work that way.

Some other things...

1. Ritz was no doubt a beast in XC and he may have been able to do the double, but we will never know. Ritz definitely is in the arugment for the greatest US HS XC runner of all time. However, I don't think that Ritz > Verzbica is a slam dunk either. This point is definitely arguable and largely opinion based, becasue there is no way to prove who is actually better. My opinion (and I am a huge Ritz fan) is that Lukas is every bit Ritz equal based off Lukas' total body of work and especially his Nike/Footlocker double. That is a lot of high level races over a very short period of time. The accumulative affect is significant (see Chris Derrick's attempt).

2. To say that Lukas couldn't improve 25 seconds in the 5k is underestimating him. I think it is certainly possible, but again he doesn't get credit for something he didn't do. For argument's sake though remember that he just improved 11 seconds in the 2M from indoors to outdoors and his 5K effort was solo from the gun.

Menace wrote:

Lukas V in my opinion is the greatest high school runner in US History. I am sure others feel the same way after he obliterated the 2 mile record and today went on to win the mile in sub four fashion. He could take down Rupps 5000 meter record as well if he wanted to. I think he will be a great 5000,10000 guy which I think should be his specialties when he becomes a pro. Olympic Champ 2016!

Maybe we can agree to call Lukas the greatest ever in high school competition--a distinction he has probably earned. (And kudos to him for winning at a wide range of distances, in [tactically] different kinds of races, and being willing to take on the nation's best HSers time after time.) That's certainly a fair interpretation of "greatest high school runner"--though this whole discussion seems to ignore runners in the sprints and hurdles (Skeets, etc., anyone?).

But to call LV the greatest (American) HSer in terms of how he stacks up in the sport as a whole won't wash. Lindgren and Ryun were competitive international athletes. Before Lindgren's senior year, no American high school boy had broken 9:00 for two miles. Lindgren took the HSR down to 8:40.0--and in the process gave the world's best distance runner all he could handle--then went on to beat the Soviets' best at 10,000 meters and win the U.S. Olympic trials at that distance. Ryun was the U.S. national champion and recordholder as a high school senior--not high school nationals, *everybody* nationals--beating the previous year's Olympic gold/silver 1500m medalists in the process.

"Greatness" has to be assessed, not by times (which consistently get faster), but by performance against one's competition. IMO Lukas has probably earned the distinction of "the greatest" against his *high school* competition and he should be getting praise from all fans of distance running for it. However, he cannot seriously be considered "the greatest" in terms of performance within the sport as a whole.

BTW: Ted Meredith, anyone?

I think "he's up there" made a great point comparing athletes of forty years ago to athletes of today:

"That was a different era, an era in which it was possible for a freak High Schooler to match the international elite. Thats just not the case anymore and I don't think it ever will be again."

This quote is extremely true. Track has become more advanced (training, equipment, etc), and you really cant expect a high schooler to compete with international class competition. Even everyone's beloved German Fernandez is/was NOTHING on the international scene, even in his peak.

Robin Hood may of been a great shot, but was he more accurate than a modern day sniper?

Lukas is obviously the son of the super-drug fueled DIETER BAUMANN. The stride, the body posture, the face, everything points to this! Here, watch his father run in this clip, it's amazing!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Erqe-S1SwK4

Has Chris Solinsky run 3:53 mile ever? AR 10K though!!!

And Bernard Lagat never ran as fast as Lukas in High School!

Lukas is not going to be a miler! He is a 3K to 10K guy, however in college they will run him in the mile for speed in the 5K for Outdoor NCAA Nationals I'm guessing.

3K indoors!

Only the future can tell if he will be one of the greatest ever or one of the greatest high schoolers ever.

I am a fan of American distance running so I hope he continues to excel!!

Bottom line, here is the list:

1. Ryun

2. Webb

3. LV

Ritz, German, Lindgren are all below LV.

DOES ANYONE HAVE ROUGH OR DETAILED SPLITS OF THE RACE, aside from the results

It's pretty funny to see all the Critics come out when an athlete runs a very awesome race. Maybe for once, you could put aside your ego and congradulate the athlete on a great race. This sport is not easy and years ago we barely saw any high school athletes running at this high of level at such a young age. Yes there where the Jim Ryuns and Alan webbs and even the Mcdoguls but still when A high school athlete breaks 4 mintues its a huge deal, How many people on earth can say that they have even run under 4 minutes, yet again under 5 minutes. Until you are capable off beating the people you critic, keep your mouth shut and enjoy the show.... thanks

Not directed towards your post rob