to Malmo, Gary and all others who care to express your opinions

my first xc race i ran 23:30 sophomore year. by senior year i was running sub 16 xc/ 9:24 2mile, and i now run for a D1 program

if i had been cut my first year i doubt i would have continue running

I think it is erroneous to apply rules for cross country vs. rules for other sports. You can't have 30 kids on a basketball team; they'd never get to play. However, in cross country, there is an open race at most invitationals where everyone can run. Plus, cross country is such an individual sport when you break it down for most people around 23 minutes.

I think the coach is wrong. This is not motivation for anyone. If I knew I had to run 50 miles/week just to maybe break 23 and be on the team, there is no way in hell I would do it. However, if the coach supported me and motivated me in my goals and I was assured of running and having many opportunities to PR, then I would train my ass off.

No personal attacks here, but the coach seems like a moron to me. He doesn't get it.

I think we all know examples of runners who improved by as much as 10 minutes from their freshman to senior years because they just got into running late but worked their butts off to around 17-18 min 5Ks. These were the guys who were the strength of the team.

I can understand the coach's reason, but he's missing a huge opportunity to include a lot of hard working people that set great examples.

If I knew the coach, I'd suggest delaying having to meet a standard until the Junior year or only for the varsity team with a lot of incentives and rewards to make. You want the performance leaders to also be the most influential and powerful in the team

Your coach is wrong. As a high school junior, seeing that angers me. XC is a sport for everyone. A 23 5k guy could be just as beneficial to the team as a frosh who can run 17 minutes, based on everything they contribute to the team, not just performances in racces. Plus, the coaches job is to help every runner, no matter how low they start, be as good as they can. Guess what? I ran 24:05 for my best 3 mile race freshman year. This was coming off about 30 miles a week, but I was doing worse than I had in 8th grade, when I ran 21:00 in a road 5k. I ran all through middle school and wanted to be a great runner, but freshman XC season I was awful. Last guy on our team most meets, and I never finished in the top 80% of any races - and these were frosh/soph only races, not varsity. Anyways, I still loved running and most of my friends ran so I kept at it. I was quiet and didn't talk much, but the coach was also my math teacher so he supported me. Sophomore year comes around and we get a new coach. Over the previous summer I ran 5-6 days a week even though only around 10 kids came to practice during the summer. My season started off great! I ran 14:00 in my first race and soon dipped down into the mid 13s for most 2 miles that season. My coach was so impressed by me. I worked harder than most of the rest of the team and he often used me as an example to the rest of the team about a guy that improved so much. At the 3 miler where I set my 24:00 PR last year, I improved to 90th out of 140 runners to finish in 20:10.

Over the winter, I continued training hard and worked up to 40 miles a week. Track season went well. I dropped my 3200 from 11:45 at the beginning (Coach was thrilled at this performance, following a 13:00 frosh year), to two incredible PRs back to back weeks of 11:24 and 11:07 at the end of the season. The greatest day of my life was the end of year track banquet when my Coach gave me the "Most improved frosh/soph runner" award. He said that if "talent ever came my way, the league had better watch out." Following this incredible moment for me, was a heartbreaking one. My Coach had been let go and would not be returning the next year. We were left without a coach and no returning varsity members to turn to.

At this point I wasn't sure where my running life was headed. I ran most days on my own, and I ran hard. I decided if I could run enough, I might overcome the lack of talent I seemed to not possess. Not sure what to do, I ran a marathon that summer, finishing in 3:21. I ran 50 miles a week and came into XC season junior year hoping to make varsity, a goal I'd held since the first time I ran a race (and finished 3rd/45) in 6th grade. I knew there would be a lot of competition from other guys but I knew I had a chance. Anyways, the first race was our home time trial - really hilly course. I went out in about 10th place, but by the mile I was in third. I closed hard and finished in second, behind our 4:15 miler. I ran 11:49 and was thrilled. I had run 14:30 here last year, 17:00 freshman year. The next week, the time plummeted. I ran 11:03 for a 2 mile course, smashing my 2 mile PR that I had set just a few months ago in track. My Coach sent me a note and told me how amazed he was by me. I ran a 5k later that year in 16:43.

Somehow I had improved from running 7:30 miles in XC races freshman year, to 6:30 miles sophomore year, to 5:30 miles junior year. I have worked hard my whole life and I am so thankful I have been able to improve so much. But my Coach made such a difference. He was the only one who truly believed in me.

Senior year is fast approaching. I'll do whatever I can to get out and contend with the best.

malmo wrote:

socalcush wrote: you could argue that by keeping some of these athletes in a sport where they have little chance for athletic success could be keeping them from pursuing something they COULD be successful at.

If you feel that athletics is something that is a distraction and should only be reserved for people who have a chance for success, then you definitely have an unhealthy outlook.

Athletics is an enhancement to the educational experience. It is not a substitution for it. That applies to all levels of achievement.

not to quibble over semantics, but that's why i qualified the point with "could be argued..."; and, in actuality, it is not an argument i would necessarily buy. i do, however, feel lucky i coach a sport where i don't have to worry about said point.

to state it more clearly, if i were a mediocre basketball player with no chance to play (or mediocre actor in drama, or a mediocre writer in english, etc.), the coach COULD be doing me a favor by cutting me, especially if it meant i serendipitously end up in cross country where i may realize a passion for the sport and/or a predisposition for it. or i could play pickup basketball on weekends for the rest of my life. or try to enter the draft anyway. or all of the above. my main argument is that i'm not sure a cross country coach has an obligation to accept all-comers, hard-workers and lazy bastards alike, when most other coaches do NOT have such an obligation.

in no may did i imply--or mean to imply--that athletics is a distraction, or that it's only for the successful, though of course, the beauty of running is that we can choose to measure success in ways that many team sports don't have the luxury of.

At one of my first practices as a high school freshman, new to the sport, my coach gave a speech. He told us how the last guy on the team is just as important as the first guy on the team because they both contribute to the team, but in different ways. We all kinda laughed at him because how could a 25 minute guy be as important as a sub 16 guy? Now, 7 years later, I'm starting get it. Your coach definitely doesn't get it.

cfdvfvgbgfr wrote:

my first xc race i ran 23:30 sophomore year. by senior year i was running sub 16 xc/ 9:24 2mile, and i now run for a D1 program

if i had been cut my first year i doubt i would have continue running

that is a cool story, but if you were told months in advance (like the kids on the op's team who have to reach the goal by August 17) I bet you could have worked hard enough to get below 23 min...but I don't know you so maybe not at that point in your life

I can understand where the coach is coming from, since he doesn't want kids who aren't going to work hard.

BUT, I also understand there are less talented kids and the handicapped guy. SO, I think he should have a rule that you either need to break 23 by August 17, or have to run over 200-300 miles over the summer (and report in to him every week about how your running has been going).

This way you make the team if you're talented, or if you at least put some effort in during the summer

This is high school we're talking about. Expecting any but the most dedicated kids to run by themselves over the summer is silly. Get them to hold Captain's practices and you'll have some luck.

CoachB wrote:

Exactly. If your coach spends his time working with the kids who SHOW that they actually want to improve, then more kids will show that they want to improve.

It is really easy to make a attendance requirement and if kids flake or goof of, you can cut them then.

This.

So far I've only read the first page so maybe I'm repeating something here. I can see no legitimate reason for limiting your team this way. If you have massive numbers of kids and can only afford one bus for away meets maybe you limit who can travel but even then everyone should be able to practice and run home meets. If, as the season goes along, it becomes clear that some of those slower kids are putting in no effort and are also disrupting the team maybe it's time to do some pruning. But only if they're a detriment to the rest of the team.

my first race i ran in the 26 minute range and only got down to 23:32 by the end of freshman xc. 8 years later i broke 15:20 hahaha. coaches should weed out by who doesn't take it seriously, not who is slow

only mentally challenged and fat kids should struggle to break 23:00...fat kids can go get in the somewhere else...mentally challenged kids should be allowed unless they can't break 40 and then they can probably be a manager or something

wi|fredo wrote:

my first race i ran in the 26 minute range and only got down to 23:32 by the end of freshman xc. 8 years later i broke 15:20 hahaha. coaches should weed out by who doesn't take it seriously, not who is slow

that's a good story. What were the biggest things that helped you improve so much? tempo runs? hard intervals? or just maturing?

We had a guy in high school join our team the first day of official practice after the core group of returning runners had been training together all summer. Shows up looking nothing like a runner: shoes, shorts, etc were completely wrong. But the guy committed and I think the attitude and work ethic of the team was contagious. Before you know the guy was our 6th man for a state championship. I think the right attitude to have is: anyone is welcome, but we aren't going to make exceptions for people who don't buy in. If you are committed, work hard every day, and have a positive attitude, it shouldn't matter what your times are.

trololol wrote:

my coach for cross country said today that if you do not break 23 on the first day of the season (when we have a time trial) august 17, then you are not allowed on the team. I like that cross country is a sport where anyone can run. Do you find this fair?

Hey I was a 45 yr old ex sprinter trying to lose weight and I broke 20 minutes.

Mate if you think a 'sport' is a community romp through the woods with a dozen of your least talented friends, then you can do that. Just don't try to race in college. The coach can do without the gas charges to haul your sorry asses from meet to meet.

Harden up Nancy.

At my high school, my coaches got tired of kids not training over the summer so one year they instituted a time trial for all returners. It was 2 miles on the roads in 12:30. If you didn't make it, you had to write a letter explaining why you should be let on the team. I didn't make it, I wrote a letter, I ended up getting really serious about running, helped the team get on the podium in a competitive state my senior year and ran 1430 in college. I remember thinking it was stupid that they had that time trial, even almost quitting and not writing the letter because it felt very degrading to a 15 year old, but ultimately I came to agree with them as I came to think of my(rapidly-becoming-former)self as immature.

I definitely think it was good that they didn't have a time trial for freshman. If you don't know what it's all about, that is easily enough to scare you away. But, sometimes a challenge that you don't think you're ready for can be the thing that forces you to reevaluate your seriousness.

Also, we're all only speculating on the reason the coach did it (I think; unless I missed a post from the OP). There are sometimes legitimate reasons to cut kids. For instance, if he's the only coach and has managed to build a very popular program, it could become really hard to give kids the attention he thinks they deserve, and so he'd rather instill a small degree of selectivity, maybe even making the aura of the team more appealing, and giving himself more hope to give attention to the guys who really want to be there. It isn't the way I would do it, but I also think that it will help some kids on the team. Possibly even you.

webbwhacker wrote:

Hey I was a 45 yr old ex sprinter trying to lose weight and I broke 20 minutes.

Mate if you think a 'sport' is a community romp through the woods with a dozen of your least talented friends, then you can do that. Just don't try to race in college. The coach can do without the gas charges to haul your sorry asses from meet to meet.

Harden up Nancy.

Good for you, tough guy.

I'm one of the last persons who thinks that running is about a community romp through the woods. It is, and always has been, an athletic competition to me. But I recognize that the Summertime motives of kids isn't the same, and that athletes can be trained to exploit their native talents if you can find them and if you allow them in. If you exclude the kids who aren't obsessed with running, our sport will end up being the sole domain of a bunch of whiny obsessive brats, if it isn't already.

trololol wrote:

he does not want to be the team at invitationals where one of his runners gets last.

My high school team had a kid get last in a JV race. He ran 30:19 for 5k - that's right, almost 10 minutes per mile. He was the slowest guy in any division at the meet - by about two minutes.

Our varsity also won the meet.

I don't get your point at all? You mean to say that you already know months in advance who is going to run cross country? that doesn't sound like any team I've ever been on, and I've been on a very successful high school program (State Champ, 4th ranked in the country) and a very successful college program (4th at NCAAs, 1st among teams with American runners, and not one blue-chipper on that squad), and for good measure, the top performing US team ever at World XC.

Cross country isn't about who's on top on the first week of the season, it's about who's on top on the last week of the season.

This is just flat out dumb.

If you want to have a successful season get as many people as you know to run over the Summer. While you're doing that, you should be thinking about others in school that you want to recruit when school starts.