50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

thanks, no i haven't done JFK before. Only one ultra -- stone mill 50 mile in 2011 to celebrate turning 50. since that one was reputed to have been long, plus i got lost a few times, i think I have a chance to PR!

dave

dhaaga, have always wanted to do JFK...one of the most storied ultras in USA...as the first half is super rocky, my dinged up feet will no longer comply...but sure would dig racing that long stretch of C&O Canal Towpath...and typically such a great time of year...a wonderful pursuit.

CM: A case of beer? Nice. Pretty good run too...

OGII: An 85.5% is no joke. Nice race!

amkelley: Yes, you run a lot! I couldn't imagine.

NDJY: You might be sub 5:50 by Flint. Probably see you there!

KPdx: Solid mile. Its not what you're used to but faster than 99.9999% of others our age. Take it.

Frank Meza: Followed the story from the start. Sucks he made the choice to cheat, sucks he didn't own up to it, sucks he chose to take his own life. It sucks. A bunch of bad decisions messed up his life and the people around him. He is 100% responsible for everything that happened.

Egos?: Sure, we all have them. Isn't every post here ego driven? Aren't all FB posts ego driven? Why does anyone post anything? To look at me? See what I did? Why post your workouts or results here? Walk away if you don't like it. Its just the way it is.

Runnings been ok here. Got the miles up to 59.6 last week. Got my @ss seriously kicked on a 3 mile tempo Tuesday. I wanted to treadmill it but my training partner wasn't backing down. Dew point was 73, heat index 100, just unbearable. I don't handle it well. And then it just down-poured the first mile but quickly turned into an oven the last two. Went 6:29,631,625. Felt sick the rest of the night. Ran my longest run in a few years of 14.4 Saturday. Got into the low 7:00's from 5-10... Finished up at 7:36 pace.

I'll be running a 5K Saturday. I've run this race quite a few times but haven't been there since 2013. I've got the 45-49 record at 16:27 and the 50-54 record at 16:29. It might take a really good day to get the 55-59 record of 17:33. Thats probably just outside of my capabilities these days.

Have a good week,

Dave

Racerdb wrote:

Egos?: Sure, we all have them. Isn't every post here ego driven? Aren't all FB posts ego driven? Why does anyone post anything? To look at me? See what I did? Why post your workouts or results here? Walk away if you don't like it. Its just the way it is.

+1

And to MF or whoever said it, no, no I did NOT have a good race on the Fourth of July. Here's what happened; I'd welcome insights.

As you know, I was less than happy with my first two half marathons, because I am an ungrateful egomaniac, but seriously, at my fitness I am in a cohort that can achieve 1:22 in halfs. Yet I ran both of mine in 1:26 and change. That's a 6:33 pace.

In the past three weeks I have run two 10Ks, one on a flat course in perfect 50-degree conditions, the other on July 4 was much warmer but overcast — didn't matter! Got the same result in both races, finishing 40 and change for a 6:33 pace, same as my HM pace!

Even crazier, I have run, at less than all-out race effort, TWO indoor 10Ks in sub-39 time. What in the wide wide world of sports is a-goin' on here?

My theory is that checking my time every lap keeps me on pace and distracts me from how much I'm suffering. Your theories, please!

Logged 44 miles this week, 50 last week, looking at 55 next week. This summer I'm running easy or recovery pace six days a week plus one hard workout or race.

KCgeezer,

I would say you may be putting too much pressure on yourself. Step away from racing or lower your expectations for a bit. Improvement in distance running is rarely linear.

Igy

Racerdb wrote:

Egos?: Sure, we all have them. Isn't every post here ego driven? Aren't all FB posts ego driven? Why does anyone post anything? To look at me? See what I did? Why post your workouts or results here? Walk away if you don't like it. Its just the way it is.

Agreed. Like so many other aspects of personality, ego is a good thing to have up to a point, but it can become destructive when it overwhelms everything else. Most accomplished people in any walk of life have strong egos. It's when the need to stoke that ego causes one to act dishonestly or treat other people badly that it becomes a problem.

The poor guy is dead. Instead of piling on someone who can’t defend himself, let’s just let him Rest In Peace.

^If you really believe that, then why did you copy my entire post? Try practicing what you preach.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

^If you really believe that, then why did you copy my entire post? Try practicing what you preach.

Obviously he was using it as an example.

KCgeezer wrote:

As you know, I was less than happy with my first two half marathons, because I am an ungrateful egomaniac....

....My theory is that checking my time every lap keeps me on pace and distracts me from how much I'm suffering. Your theories, please!

I'm right there with you! I've run nearly 600 races and I can probably count on two hands the times I've been totally happy.

Once we lose that drive and start settling with our performances we're no longer the competitor we've always been. I still say I'm chasing the dream of that one perfect race we've been training for all our lives! Maybe someday...

Dave

M59 -- 5'11" 174 lbs

Open PRs ---- 16:04, 2:40:30 (age 23)

Masters PRs -- 17:10, 2:56:03 (age 43)

M55-59 PRs --- 18:58, 3:07:23 (age 58)

Goal: 15K in August (4 weeks)

July 1-7, 2019

M- 1.5-mi wu; 3x 1.5 mile w/2-min rest; 1.0-mi cd

Tu- off

W- 7.7 miles @ 10:01/mi

Th- 3.0 miles @ 10:01/mi; 1.0 mile @ 6:34

Fr- off

Sa- 2.0 miles @ 10:43/mi

Su- 4.0 miles @ 11:43/mi

TOTAL: 24.3 MILES

My training paces continue to get slower, slower, slower. When I'm out there running, it really seems like I can't move any faster. It's a similar feeling to hitting the wall late in a marathon. Weird. As recently as last October, I was running low-7s for 12-mile training loops. And still thinking a sub-3 marathon might be possible this year. Now, 11-minute miles?!

On Thursday, I was slogging along at 10-minute pace on a 4-mile loop. It felt impossible to pick it up, even to 8-minute miles. "This is ridiculous," I thought, so forced some mental fortitude as I pushed the lap button with a mile to go. And ran 6:34. ???

Similarly, on Monday my warm-up pace was 10:00/mile, but for my three 1.5-mile LT repeats, I managed 6:57/mi, 6:51/mi, 6:59/mi paces. Well, that was encouraging, but I'll need maybe 6:40 pace to be competitive in my upcoming 15K. Not too likely in just 4 weeks, but I'm not giving up just yet!

---

lucKY - I'm looking forward to seeing your enthusiasm and fitness on the upswing. A new age group is approaching, yes?

CM - Great week, solid training block, and looks like you're poised and ready to pounce at this weekend's 15K. I had hopes to spectate, but probably won't make the trek down I-90 ... although I bicycled through that city a few weeks ago. That was about the 100-mile point!

MikeF - PR plus 10 is an interesting benchmark. Based on the last few days, I'm not within 15 minutes of my 5K PR. Ha! Nice effort to cruise it on a solo TT.

Olde Farte - So challenging to keep up with the ancillary stuff, especially when getting by without it. Hope you're fully recovered by Wednesday.

Iggy - A road 2-mile! That's an unusual event. Congrats on the continued progress ... and the AG win!

daagha - That 5K qualifies as a break-through race. Wow! 6-flat pace for 3.1 certainly bodes well for a sub-6 mile in a couple years. And sub-5:40 for sure this Friday. I couldn't break 19 last year, and ran 5:38 on the track.

Rtype - Good luck with the calf. That's an injury I've never suffered, but the elliptical machine has been a friend through my knee issues.

old guy II - That's a fantastic 10K. And a 3-minute AG win, to boot! Congrats.

amkelley - Yeah, the heel woes may be a blessing in disguise. A forced low-mileage taper week. I didn't have a chance to comment last week, but your volume continues to stun me. At age 60+ especially! And, you might notice, your training paces are STILL faster than mine. Crush your marathon this weekend!

Not Done - Sub-6! Nicely done.

KP - Congrats on the AG win. Seems there were quite a few road miles on the Fourth ...

Charlie - I like your planned trajectory. Yeah, it looks a lot like CM's travels through his 50s to age 60+!

Racerdb - Your current comeback is really going well. Get the right conditions this weekend, and that 55-59 record may well fall (you don't hold that one yet?)

KCgeezer - That's a lot of racing. If you want to continue racing every week, best not to dwell too much on time, and just enjoy the competition. Or think of them as mainly training efforts?

Allen1959,

Interestingly there are four two mile road race opportunities in the area that I know of, and I ran all of them this past year. Maybe an Idaho thing.

Some thoughts in regards to your training runs, there is a concept of “pace lock.” Running too frequently at one pace, generally slower. You could try not timing your easy days, making your hard days more race specific. Also, as you get older it is a good idea that you visit faster speeds to avoid the old man shuffle. For example, 8 x 200m at current mile race pace or an equivalent number of hill repetitions.

Igy

Ran a 23 mile week, after two weeks of 32 miles for each. Would have run a 4 miler on the 4th, but my wife is finally home after 7 and 1/2 weeks of caring for her Alzheimers-laden mother who'd broken her hip, gotten very confused and aggressive, etc., etc. What a terribly progressive disease.

I, too, have looked at and considered the age-group cheats and the repercussions. I keep the road racing records for Missouri, so have some vested interest, but also I have a pretty good partner with my wife, and so cheating has some personal interests. My wife has been cheated on in racing, until it was corrected (a person with serious personal problems) and we've had cheating in KC by people often suspected. Plus we've seen people actually STEAL age group awards when folks were not looking. When that couple was called out, they have never been seen again, and I think that was proper that they were confronted so that the behavior was ended and our wonderful running community continues. If they were not called out, they may well have continued to this day, years later.

Marathoninvestigations.com is something I believe in deeply because he is deliberate, cautious, and not prone to trolling and destroying the individual. Since most race directors these days have too much on their hands to possibly search for possible cheaters, esp. in large races, I feel it's a vital area that would otherwise be left unattended/underreported/undercorrected. Until there's a better way, I think he should carry on.

I have been close to a friend or two who committed suicide, did not see it coming until it was too late (one is still uncertain). It's horrible for the family and we lose great people, but they clearly had great personal problems, and it's all of our responsibilties to help them, but then they need to accept that they need help. He clearly did not accept help as he did not see that he was a cheater, even after multiple DQ's. Nor did the family, so it seems that even the family has problems with what is right and wrong. That is even more troubling. CIM DQ'd him twice and yet that was not enough to stop the behavior, and how do you look for when that person shows up next, do we keep a list of cheaters in our pocket/computer so they don't enter the next race? Not going to happen!

I don't have an easy answer, but I do believe that we do have to have more than one way to discover cheats (using bikes or PEDs). Just my thoughts, anyhow.

Mike Lundgren wrote:

I don't have an easy answer, but I do believe that we do have to have more than one way to discover cheats (using bikes or PEDs). Just my thoughts, anyhow.

Just how prevelant is cheating, whether it be PEDs, course cutting, bib swapping, etc., at the Grandmasters level? I'm old, slow and chronically injured half the time and basically run charity & club races (small potatos). At most of these types of races the top-3 or so age-groupers usually get a cheap ribbon, an energy bar and maybe a handshake from the race director. Lol. Over decades of racing, I've seen a few at most cut the course (usually on a out & back course). And at one charity race years ago a pretty muscular guy in my age group ask me at the start line just before the horn "do they test at this race?" He won my age group, grabbed his 1st place blue ribbon and pretty much high-tailed it out of there passing up on the post-race festivities. Lol.

So, since I don't and never have raced the big time stuff - what is the prize at those races? Trophies & medals? Bragging rights? I don't believe there's any prize money involved? Certainly no sponsorship? What are incentives that would compel Grandmasters to cheat? Or is it just human nature to cheat regardless of the reward? Again, I'm slow and it doesn't matter to me whether I finish 3rd, 5th or last in my age group - it's all about participation & enjoyment for me. However, maybe it's a different ballgame for faster runners who are more competitive taking their racing very serious and feel need to win?

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Some thoughts in regards to your training runs, there is a concept of “pace lock.” Running too frequently at one pace, generally slower. You could try not timing your easy days, making your hard days more race specific. Also, as you get older it is a good idea that you visit faster speeds to avoid the old man shuffle. For example, 8 x 200m at current mile race pace or an equivalent number of hill repetitions.

Thanks for the feedback, Igy. Yeah, I definitely seem to be locking in on an old-man shuffle pace. I've tried forcing a few short accelerations during my slogs, but it's SO difficult!

Part of the problem is the knee pain. It's mostly tolerable at shuffle-pace, but is a lot worse with the increased range-of-motion (and impact force) of faster paces. The pain is really difficult to overcome, mentally.

This morning I resorted to ibuprofen BEFORE my workout. On the soft towpath surface, I ran 3 x 1-mile with minimal pain -- 6:30, 6:24, 6:23 (five-minute jog recoveries). Felt good to move faster than 10-minute miles!

Allen1959,

Yes, I recall you are dealing with the knee. My thoughts probably don’t apply.

Igy

Inquiring minds want to know wrote:

So, since I don't and never have raced the big time stuff - what is the prize at those races? Trophies & medals? Bragging rights? I don't believe there's any prize money involved?

Interestingly, for several years when I was in my 50s there was a local half-marathon that offered a decent amount of money (either $300 or $500) for the first overall male and female grand master. Despite the prize money, the race rarely drew very strong fields in that age group and several times I won that money with performances that age graded to around 78-79. I was sad when they dropped that prize money a few years ago but it really didn't make sense to offer it. However, there's still a local HM that offers $100/$75/$25 for the podium finishers in every single 5-year age group, and I've never been worse than second in all the years I've run it.. The $100 first prize basically covers my entry fee and gasoline, with enough left over for a trip to Starbucks.

Inquiring minds want to know wrote:

Just how prevelant is cheating, whether it be PEDs, course cutting, bib swapping, etc., at the Grandmasters level?

I have no idea. To my knowledge, the only "cheating" I've ever witnessed is runners going up onto the sidewalk to cut corners. Only a fraction of a second saved there, but it still annoys me. I'm careful to only run certified courses (and always double-check the start-finish locations against the USATF certification map), so it's hard to understand why someone would purposely make the race distance inaccurate.

One year my top male athlete a 29:00 10k and NCAA cross country qualifier accepted prize money for a Christmas time road race in Mexico. I reported the violation and he had to return the money to a charity and faced a two meet suspension. He was pretty angry I reported him. He got over it and we are Facebook friends.

I can’t recall personally earning any prize money. That came after my younger years. Last year I donated many of my running and coaching awards to a local youth track club for trophy/plaque recycling. I have held on to a couple of awards that have special meaning to me. Medals can be easily stored so have kept them. I tried to get some historical items (uniforms and shoes) to MikeF but my son objected. Perhaps later he will change his mind, but did not want to force the issue (my sentimental child). He may have thought it was related to my diagnosis, which it was not.