Injured runner not allowed to return to team for State qualifiers, wins FL West

HC wrote:

Despite her obvious talent I find it hard to believe her injury hampered her to the extent of not being able to participate with a few practices per week yet get enough training in to win FL West.

It was interesting reading the letters to the editor in the first linked article. It made reference to Julie running road races on the weekend. It doesn't sound like her injury played too much of a role in her not being on the team. It sounds more like Mom decided she knew better about her daughter's training and racing.

We'll see how she's racing in 6 years.

End thread.

Clueless? wrote:

dumbass on my forehead wrote:

Thank you for finally admitting this.

Care to explain?

You're trying to blame smart hardworking runnes, instead of admitting you're a terrible coach.

I kind of have to agree with the coach here. It sounds like she set expectations and the runner just didn't follow them.

Being on a team involves playing by the rules, whether you agree with them or not. I was one of the star runners on my high school team, and I knew it. Still, whenever I was injured, I had to at least make an appearance at practices before leaving to cross-train. I also had to attend home meets to support the team.

I had several arguments with coaches. Ultimately, coaches stood their ground and told me that I didn't HAVE TO be on the team, but that if I wanted to be on the team I had to meet agreed upon expectations.

They made it clear to me that no matter how well I could train myself or how fast I could run, to be on the TEAM, I had to be part of the TEAM and follow the rules like everyone else. This was a valuable lesson for me as a high school athlete and also as a citizen. Essentially, I learned that no matter who I was or how good I was, I was not "above" the rules (laws).

It sounds like this runner likes to race & compete as an individual but has little interest in the team. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but, as such, she should be content competing as an individual and accept that she is not willing to make the team committment.

Parents also should not enable this behavior (of skirting the rules and failing to comply with agreed-upon expectations). When they enable kids to do so and defend their kids in doing so (because of who they are), they create very ENTITLED kids who grow into entitled, self-righteous adults. What they need to do is allow kids to make choices and accept natural consequences.

dumbass coach wrote:

Really, it's only the coach and our teams loss, yes I am on the team with her. He should have let Julie compete because regardless of how many practices she missed, she is still one of the best in the nation and could have improved our team scoring.

You're a moron and a liar. If you were on the team, or even read the first linked article in my OP, you'd note that "Val Sell" is a SHE not a HE. Their assistant coach is a male and while he did not make the decision, he supported it.

dumbass on my forehead wrote:

Clueless? wrote:

Care to explain?

You're trying to blame smart hardworking runnes, instead of admitting you're a terrible coach.

Well I guess the first part of your name definitely fits if that is the conclusion you drew from my post. I am always amazed at how people can allow themselves to look so stupid since their post is anonymous. I am sure you are one of those types constantly complaining about how successful you would be if life didn't treat you so unfairly.

By the way, in the case of Julie, she had success both while running for the coach in the previous year and running on her own this year. Sounds like she is pretty talented and hard working. If she had a sense of responsibility she would have been able to run for her team.

Wow! As a former HS coach and now a college coach I do not quite understand some of your comments! This girl was injured! She should come to practice everyday just like any other person on the team. If she can not run, she can bike, swim, lift, do core, help time, help get water, etc. If the coach wanted and expected her to be there and she was not, then she should be kicked off the team! Why allow someone to come and go when they please just because they are that talented? It sends a poor message to everyone else who is on the team that comes and works hard everyday! You can not have your 21:00 girl be there everyday working hard just to be taken off of varsity for this girl who is never there! Sometimes it's more about rules and doing what is best for those who are committed and there everyday working hard. I would have sat down with her, told her my expactions, came up with a cross training recovery plan, and when she did not do this she would be let go! No hesitations!

twice a runner wrote:

I'm a HS coach..... I don't expect you to stay to the end of the 4x4 if you're not running and your parents want to take you home..... My line is -- if you love running, there's a team for you, and I'm not going to be a bully as a coach.

You're a bully if you expect your athletes to stay as long as the athletic contest is being fought?

I played baseball in hs and college and no one ever thought of leaving until after the last out of the last game, since we usually played two. I was a pitcher, and was occasionally replaced during the first game. Should I have left with my parents because it is cold in Illinois in the spring and they didn't want to sit around struggling to stay warm because there was no way I could play again that day?

My oldest daughter ran track for a high school like this. When she was a freshman, I made her stay to the end of a quad meet even though everyone else on the team had left except the 4X4 team. All 4 were freshmen. None were great but all showed promise. (62, 65, c67-68-nothing real fast but enough talent to eventually be ok in their small school league)

The other three teams had all their girls lining the track cheering and clapping. Some of their girls ran back and forth across the infield to yell support twice a lap. It was exciting for the other teams, but our team fell behind after the first runner, then struggled alone. I looked at our girls' faces as they left the stadium, turned to my wife and said, "Those girls won't be back next year." Only 1 of the 4 returned for sophomore year, and she quit after that year.

Coach, I respectfully would advise you to rethink those expectations. Especially with girls (but almost as important with guys) team support is what makes the hard training and pain in the races all worthwhile.

And when the 4X4 gets rockin and rollin, track can be one of the most intense, loud, exciting and fun sports there is.

Rich E wrote:

First, the coach is a "she" not "he." It sounds to me that the coach made reasonable accommodations and the athlete doesn't seem overly concerned about being "denied" the race opportunities. The team aspect is an important one at the high school level. A coach on a "power trip" would love to have a runner of that caliber show up for meets so the team can "win," but it sounds like this coach is an educator first.

This is the right answer. I'm very impressed with this coach for denying this kid who thinks she's all that. Want to behave as if you're better than everyone else? Well, be prepared to have at least someone tell you that NO, you aren't. That girl and likely her parent felt she was the second coming and that her shit doesn't stink.

She's obviously a talented runner, but she has a lot to learn about being a teammate...something that is an important lesson for later in life...getting along with a spouse, kids, co-workers, etc.

I support this coach and the principal 100%.

[quote]twice a runner wrote:

I'm a HS coach and am far from the most strict. When you're injured, I don't expect you to come as long as you keep in touch with me about cross training. I don't expect you to stay to the end of the 4x4 if you're not running and your parents want to take you home. I don't kick you off the team if you miss a single Saturday practice because you have a life. My line is -- if you love running, there's a team for you, and I'm not going to be a bully as a coach. quote]

You do realize that it is because of this type of attitude from some coaches that creates the kind of controversy this thread is about. The fact that you think you would be a bully for making them stay to the end of the meet or for missing a Saturday practice, shows just how big of a problem this is. What other sport lets the athletes leave before the end of the competition? What a slap in the face to those athletes competing at the end of the meet to have most of the team leave. Unbelievable.

My high school coach used to be very successful, with teams going to state every year. Over the years his teams got worse and worse and in talking with him one day he explained that it was more difficult to coach now because the athletes didn't show up everyday. That just blew me away. None of us ever considered missing a day of practice when we were going to state and our coach wouldn't have allowed it. For some reason he changed his team rules and now his athletes come and go as they please and the team isn't any good. You need to create a culture of dedication and responsibility, not one of come and go as you please because this is a second rate sport. If people want to think of cross country as a real sport, the coaches need to treat it that way.

Years ago while coaching a DI college women's team, I had an athlete tell me she would be missing the mile repeats for our Wednesday practice. I figured she needed to meet with a professor or something. It turned out she was getting a haircut. I told her politely that she would be at the workout or she would be off of the team. According to many who are posting on here, that means I was on a power trip, I was a bully, I had too big of an ego, etc. The previous coach did let the runners do things like this and guess what? They weren't very good. By simply putting in rules such as no haircuts during practice, our team improved dramatically. The new well disciplined team was much more successful, much happier and were excited about running and being part of a team. A few of the athletes left the team because they couldn't handle the new "strict" rules and they were also happy. They weren't cut out to be part of a team.

Coaches out there, please treat our sport seriously and take a stance such as Julie's coach did. Send the right message to your team and don't treat our sport as just an activity, like a 40 year old guy trying to keep in shape by running a few miles. Success does not come easily, but it feels so good when it happens. And I am not just talking about the success of the top runners, I am also talking about the kid that goes from a 25 minute 5k runner to a 21 minuter because he showed up for practice everyday and followed team rules. Does the kid that is skipping practice, leaving meets earlier, and treating our sport as a hobby feel the same satisfaction. Of course not.

I am a runner from the area, graduated in '07, and I know the situation better than most of the people who are making big assumptions based on one article and a whole lot of speculation. Julie is indeed a very talented runner, and clearly works very hard. But to say that her coach, who is a well-respected member of the running community in Santa Rosa and Sonoma County, sucks is flat out wrong. Julie trained under her for most of her high school career and has clearly seen a great deal of success from Coach Sell's training, potentially supplemented with cross training or doubles.

The fact of the matter is, plenty of national class runners (Craig Lutz comes to mind) are much more interested in being a part of a team than Julie seems to be. Although I personally find it admirable that Lutz chose to run with his team at NXN rather than run for personal glory at both NXN and FL, it's ok to not be interested in being a part of your high school team. Julie is finding success by running on her own, but Coach Sell is right on the money by sticking with the rules she set out at the beginning of the year. I think Julie is missing out on a lot of fun with her team, but that is my take on it.

So as a runner from Sonoma County, I would appreciate it if people would stop saying Coach Sell is incompetent and actually face the facts - Julie just wants to run on her own, and that's fine.

A team member says an athlete "was only required to come to 3 out of 6 weekly practices to be eligible to compete in races". On my team, you had to attend EVERY practice during the week to compete in a race. Why three out of six practices? No wonder kids are so f***ing lazy!

SLCsucks wrote:

A team member says an athlete "was only required to come to 3 out of 6 weekly practices to be eligible to compete in races". On my team, you had to attend EVERY practice during the week to compete in a race. Why three out of six practices? No wonder kids are so f***ing lazy!

I coach at a middle school in Sonoma County and our policy is that an athlete is allowed only one EXCUSED absence per week. Any unexcused absense or a second excused absence disqualifies him or her from the next meet. We have both the student athlete and their parent(s) sign an agreement to these and other rules by the end of the first week of practice each year so there aren't any issues like this one.

Last season we had to kick our best girl distance runner off our team right before finals for a similar attendance/participation issue.

Good post. Nice to see another local post who actually knows what they're talking about. Most people don't know how strong our local coaches are, including Sell.

I'm friends with the former track coach at Montgomery. He resigned due to overbearing parents and lack of administrative support for his policies and decisions. He ran his program the same as his predecessor, Sara Hall's HS coach and the only local coach to have won a team state XC title so he wasn't doing anything unrealistic or unfair. The final straw for him was when a star runner, who was clearly not injured, claimed a medical hardship for the sectional meet so he could go on the senior trip the weekend of sectionals. His mom supported the bogus claim and went over the head of the coach to the principal who allowed the claim to NCS. The poor guy that got the last qualifying spot at sectionals had to race again in a run-off. He had no chance but certainly deserved the spot at MOC he earned by competing at sectionals.

I'm really happy Montgomery administration has stepped up to fulfill their obligation of providing our local kids quality education in and out of the classroom.

I know EXACTLY who you are talking about - and it still disgusts me to this day that he got away with that. The San Rafael athlete that was the last qualifier for MOC was definitely treated unfairly.

And yes, Sonoma County has a number of great coaches - in particular Danny Aldridge, who coached his daughter Jenny as well as Julia Stamps, sticks out for me (He was also my coach...).

Having just watched Nacouzi's call-up for nationals, I truly believe she might be autistic or something. She looked very socially awkward as if she didn't know how to react while they were announcing her accomplishments. Maybe her issue with making practices/running on her own has something to do with autism or a legitimate condition that her coach should really consider. Something like autism would make it very hard to run with a team or understand a basic ultimatum like she was given.

runintherain wrote:

I am a runner from the area, graduated in '07, and I know the situation better than most of the people who are making big assumptions based on one article and a whole lot of speculation. Julie is indeed a very talented runner, and clearly works very hard. But to say that her coach, who is a well-respected member of the running community in Santa Rosa and Sonoma County, sucks is flat out wrong. Julie trained under her for most of her high school career and has clearly seen a great deal of success from Coach Sell's training, potentially supplemented with cross training or doubles.

Coach Val's is now a former "well-respected member" of the running community.

Julie is now a legend, 3rd in the nation despite having a wicked step-mother coach who got her injured again and again.

HC wrote:

I coach at a middle school in Sonoma County and our policy is that an athlete is allowed only one EXCUSED absence per week. Any unexcused absense or a second excused absence disqualifies him or her from the next meet. We have both the student athlete and their parent(s) sign an agreement to these and other rules by the end of the first week of practice each year so there aren't any issues like this one.

Last season we had to kick our best girl distance runner off our team right before finals for a similar attendance/participation issue.

You didn't HAVE to, you wanted to because you're a jerk who makes "rules" and feels he has to enforce them upon middle school students to save face, hurting the team, you claim to care about. Open up all races to all students, regardless of team membership, down with the coaches and their "rules."

Hey if you can't beat someone, you might as well have them kicked off the team.