The role of a coach; I disagree with ROJO

Yeah that 1 sec/lap thing seemed odd to me--didn't wejo go from 30:30 to 28:00 under JK? Thats a lot more than 1 second per lap.

I like the think big bit. What about the logistics? The food, the money, the time, the sacrifices made from you and your loved ones. It's been done before 2:06. 170 mi a week. That guy won every race he entered for two years. Burned out. He was beck to 2:13 again.

It seems as though you have contradicted yourself in your own statement.

another canuck wrote:

I disagree on several levels. First of all, it is not absolutely clear what level of talent a guy has on day 1. In other words, it is not cut in stone that certain guys have obvious limits. Some guys develop faster or slower than others. Some thrive on lower mileage and some on higher.Some guys have trained much harder in hs than others.

Secondly, anecdotal and empirical evidence is that some 4:15 hs milers do not improve much, and some 4:20 guys break 4:00. In those cases, it is often a difference in coaching.

You mention possible talent level, then you say some guys develop faster than others and that some train harder than others in high school. You then go on to say that some 4:15 hs milers don't improve much and some 4:20 guys break 4:00. Then attribute it to the coaching!?!?

Can you not see the problem there?

If a really talented runner hasn't done any training in high school and runs 4:20ish. He's going to improve a lot with any coach given some serious training in college. On the contrary, a 4:15 hs miler with minimal talent who trained his ass off in high school will likely barely improve even with a great coach; he has already almost maxed out his potential.

No, I haven't contradicted myself. But you have just added a couple more legitimate variables. My main point is simply that Rojo seemed to be limiting himself too much given all these variables. I think most of us agree that somewhere out there there are 4:20-4:30 milers undertained and/or porly coached that may well exceed the performance of some of the 4:15 group.

I agree, almost any runner can make huge improvement with the right training. Me for instance. I reject the advice of most coaches on the grounds that they have very limited vision. I'm a coaches worst nightmare, but I get results my way. I'm way beyond the age range that Rojo refers to, but the principle is the same.

This is a shame because I thought Rojo was really clued up about training, maybe he has temporarily lost the plot, it's hard to know because he doesn't seem to have the ability to discuss stuff on this messageboard?

JK's rule of thumb is meant to apply to large groups of runners, not individuals. On average, I think he is roughly accurate that a great coach with a bunch of 9:10 guys will be competitive with an ok coach who has a bunch of 9:00 guys. There will be plenty of exceptions but, on average, it seems reasonable.

another canuck wrote:

No, I haven't contradicted myself. But you have just added a couple more legitimate variables. My main point is simply that Rojo seemed to be limiting himself too much given all these variables. I think most of us agree that somewhere out there there are 4:20-4:30 milers undertained and/or porly coached that may well exceed the performance of some of the 4:15 group.

I inferred from ROJO that among a large pool of quality coaches - differences in experience or knowledge or methods will not matter much (at least not much more than 1s/lap). Obviously if the 4:20 guy is coached by the personal trainer for the football team, there is probably lots of room for improvement.