Does anybody here train using Daniels Running Formula

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  • T Everett
    9 years ago 10/19/2010 2:11pm CDT
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    His name comes up in half the threads on here, but how many of you actually use his book to train?

    If you've read his book, but don't follow his training, why not?

    I'm curious as I'm now into Phase IV of the 5K-15K program, and seeing results. Seems like it covers all of the bases, but as I'm 40 and never been coached I don't have much to base my opinion on.
  • Masters runner 348
    9 years ago 10/19/2010 2:34pm CDT
    re: T Everett
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    Use it all the time with some slight modifications. Still improving.
  • Another Masta
    9 years ago 10/19/2010 2:46pm CDT
    re: T Everett
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    Same here, for marathon. I've improved a lot using these.

    I'll sub in some trail/hill workouts for some of the prescribed tempo or MP runs, but follow the overall program and many of the workouts.

    JD's programs work. My wife is a masters 5/10K runner and runs Daniels programs as well, with even better results.
  • Hair Splitter
    9 years ago 10/22/2010 7:36am CDT
    re: T Everett
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    I'm trying Daniels for the first time right now. I'm in the EQ phase. I absolutely expect to improve since I was previously doing practically nothing (25-35 mpw easy runs). Actually I've been doing practically nothing for 9 years. Still able to run sub-16min 5ks just from this easy training. So maybe I can go low 15's or maybe even high 14's if I keep it up.
  • ken bob
    9 years ago 10/25/2010 4:09pm CDT
    re: T Everett
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    daniels' training is very good. Phase I easy running phase II rep training phase III VO2max phase IV lactate threshold/racing (or maybe the racing phase is after...)
    the reason I don't use it is because it tends to be on the high quality/low volume side whereas my legs do very well with high volume/low quality. But certainly a lot of people would be better off using his training vs whatever they're doing. UofOregon uses it (wheating, centrowitz, fleet, acosta all those guys!)
  • former jd runner
    9 years ago 10/25/2010 11:59pm CDT
    re: T Everett
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    I ran using JD two years ago, then our coach had to leave. I saw great successes from it, but the program and my coach were very strict on pacing. I was a junior in college, we never ran faster than 7 minutes/mile on our easy days, and we trained 7-8 hours a week (typically included an hour of cross training, and all runs were singles).

    Our coach used a strict, organized progression for T and I pace. T pace we would start at 5x4 minutes with 1 minute recoveries. As the season went on, we would move up to 4x5, 3x7, 2x10, 20 minutes. Typically this was done in the early season and we would keep the same pace for all of the workouts, until we had a race and then our vDot would move up. Workouts were extremely controlled, we would have a 100m strip every mile or so to make sure we were on pace. The 20 minute T pace is straight from the book.

    I pace went - 15x1 on/1 off, 10x90 on/90 off, 8x2on/90 off, 6x2.5 on/90 off, 5x3 on/90 off, 4x4 on/ 2 off, 3x4.5 on/ 2 off. R pace were typical workouts straight from the book (you get the picture from the previous ones I have stated). Again, very strict on pace to make sure that we were not going too fast. I pace was never more than 10k. Every Thursday we would do a 30 minute run and 30 minute pool workout.

    We did weight circuits twice a week as well and shifted into plyometrics later in the season.

    Our coach was a former triathlete and it was his first time coaching cross country and track. Looking back, it seemed like sub maximal training but there were definite benefits from this style of training and once I am on my own, I will do this style of training again. I know that these workouts aren't right out of the books, but he did use the charts for our paces and used the book as a guide.

    Overall it is a good program even though it is a little cookie cutterish. If you follow the paces, there's a good chance that you will never overtrain and the workouts are setup to show progression throughout the season and I think that seeing the progression built me up mentally as well as physically.
  • Really!?!?
    9 years ago 10/29/2010 5:26am CDT
    re: ken bob
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    daniels' training is very good. Phase I easy running phase II rep training phase III VO2max phase IV lactate threshold/racing (or maybe the racing phase is after...)
    the reason I don't use it is because it tends to be on the high quality/low volume side whereas my legs do very well with high volume/low quality. But certainly a lot of people would be better off using his training vs whatever they're doing. UofOregon uses it (wheating, centrowitz, fleet, acosta all those guys!)

    ____________________________

    I'm surprised--not that there's anything wrong with Daniels--that, as you say, UofOregon uses Daniels. Are you sure? I'd like to hear more about this!
  • gamecock
    registered
    9 years ago 10/29/2010 5:56am CDT
    re: Really!?!?
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    I don't use the workouts, but the tables are essential. And I consult (but don't exactly follow) the periodization plan for the 4 phases.
  • ccrunner609
    registered
    9 years ago 10/29/2010 6:44am CDT
    re: gamecock
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    I started training my HS teams on it and my girls were top 10 in the state in CC 4 years in a row after never making it to state before. Dropped the school record from 19:32 to 18:50.

    Now I find it to be a great program for girls...but the boys, no. The Phases are great and phase 4 works well for girls but not intense enough for the boys. THey need more speed late in the season.

    I dont use the workouts as much as just staying in his phases and hitting the training zones. Hard to plug all kids into a cookie cutter workout.
  • should woulda
    9 years ago 10/31/2010 8:39pm CDT
    re: ccrunner609
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    It's a great starting point for nearly everyone who doesn't have access to an elite coach. How can you argue with the history?

    Now everyone responds differently, I see good results as a Master's runner...and it helps to have the day to day laid out

    I can look back at a year and see whether or not it worked and how it may be modified to reach my goals, and/or if they were attainable...

    Most runners can benefit from a plan like either JTupper, Pfitz, some of the RT stuff etc..
  • JTupperFan
    9 years ago 11/01/2010 2:09am CDT
    re: T Everett
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    Almost everyone follows Daniels to some degree, because it's smart training. Many develop their own "flavors." That's fine. The system works. Tailor it to your own needs, abilities, goals. That's also smart. That's what Daniels wants you to do. That's what HE would do if he were coaching you personally.
  • Thomas Pain
    9 years ago 11/01/2010 8:34am CDT
    re: JTupperFan
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    Lots of people on this thread are giving me crap for using Daniels. I don't understand why! So far, Daniels seems like a great substitute for not having an elite coach.

    http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=3757581
  • ken bob
    9 years ago 11/03/2010 5:10pm CDT
    re: Really!?!?
    Forum Index
    http://www.nacactfca.org/Lananna.pdf

    Clearly, Lananna credits the basic concepts of his training to DRF.
  • rekrunner
    9 years ago 11/03/2010 6:11pm CDT
    re: Thomas Pain
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    If the choice is between choosing yourself as a coach, or Daniels as a coach, for most people, Daniels would be the better choice.
  • former reader picking ntis
    9 years ago 11/03/2010 6:58pm CDT
    re: rekrunner
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    I have Daniels Book but I don't follow the plans any more. Here are my criticisms:

    1) The pace charts don't apply to me very well. There is no one VDOT that will capture all my paces, so I used to just use mile race pace for R, 5k race pace for I, run E based on feel, and make a guess for T.

    2) Workouts are based on too few paces. As a 1500 guy, I think you need to touch on 800 pace sooner than phase 4, and there is no mention of developing all-out speed. A miler needs to touch on that once in a while, that's why they hop on the 4x4 team occasionally. Also no work at 3k or 10k race paces. These are productive paces, and are even race-specific for some people.

    3) The full recovery isn't doing it for me with R pace. Sure, maybe early on to develop leg strength, speed, and neuromuscular adaptations. But eventually in order to run a fast middle distance race you need to be working speed endurance.

    4) A 20 minute tempo run is too hard and short in my opinion, though that was updated in version 2, not really a complaint any more but it used to be when I was using the book.
  • former reader picking nits
    9 years ago 11/03/2010 7:02pm CDT
    re: rekrunner
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    I have Daniels Book but I don't follow the plans any more. Here are my criticisms:

    1) The pace charts don't apply to me very well. There is no one VDOT that will capture all my paces, so I used to just use mile race pace for R, 5k race pace for I, then guess at E and T based on feel.

    2) Workouts are based on too few paces. As a 1500 guy, I think you need to touch on 800 pace sooner than phase 4 (and even then it is only 4x200 at 800 pace), and there is no mention of developing all-out speed. A miler needs to touch on that once in a while, that's why they hop on the 4x4 team occasionally. Also no work at 3k or 10k race paces. These are productive paces, and are even race-specific for some people. Also no talk of high-end aerobic runs.

    3) The full recovery isn't doing it for me with R pace. Sure, maybe early on to develop leg strength, speed, and neuromuscular adaptations. But eventually in order to run a fast middle distance race you need to be working speed endurance.

    4) A 20 minute tempo run is too short in my opinion, though that was updated in version 2 (so not really a complaint any more but it used to be when I was using the book.)
  • Joe Coblentz
    9 years ago 11/25/2010 11:46am CST
    re: T Everett
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    Sounds great. I like his VDot system. But I'm 60. Anyone in that venerable age group using it? I still follow Lydiard with 2 days/week of faster work (I used to call it speed when I was young and swift). If Daniels has a way that can keep me competitive, I'll change.
  • me three
    9 years ago 11/25/2010 12:45pm CST
    re: T Everett
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    Of the well-known books, I found Daniels to be by far the best structured - the easiest to follow. I use the tables to calculate my pace for fast workouts.

    One caveat, from my own experience, is that Daniels' total mileage suggestions seem a little low, so his equivalences are too optimistic (to correctly predict your marathon time), unless you are doing a whole lot of weekly miles.
  • h45uy
    9 years ago 11/25/2010 1:02pm CST
    re: me three
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    There was (is?) a whole Lydiard vs Daniels thread--very, very lengthy--and I was one of those who thought that I'd choose Daniels if a female, Lydiard if a male.

    Someone mentioned "the history": fact is, jtupper's Cortland men, though they were very good and occasionally went to DIII Nationals, were never really on the same level as his Cortland women: perennial[sp?] Nationals competitors, consistent championship contenders.

    I just think that JD's schedules work a little better for the *typical* female than for the *typical* male.

    I also think that jtupper was A LOT more than a guy who wrote a workout schedule--lots of people can do that--he was a COACH, just as Lydiard was. The Xs and Os are never the whole story.
  • NYCMaster
    9 years ago 11/25/2010 1:20pm CST
    re: T Everett
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    When I focus on the 1500mm - 3000m training program, I also need to use quite different VDOTs for the different paces.

    I can mile in 5:10, a 64 VDOT. But I can't run a set of 5 x 1000m intervals much better than 6:00 min/mile pace, putting me around 53 VDOT. My best 10K is around 42, giving me a VDOT for T pace of about 49. My natural easy pace (about 68% of HR reserve) is about 9:20/mile, which gives an even lower E VDOT of 45. And it is not that I am untrained -- I have been doing 30-45 mile weeks for over 10 years.

    That said, I like the Daniels plan. It always gets me to target races in peak form.