12x1 mile... does this workout make sense?

some crazy runner guy wrote:

No this work out is awful unless you are a marathon runner. If you are training for an 8k and your coach give you this work out look at other schools and transfer.

That's right. As we all know, Lydiard proved that marathon training is useless as preparation for shorter races.

Not.

It's a lot of volume, true, for 8K/10K runners, but I suspect that Tinman would approve, more or less, as long as the runner had preceded this workout with less stringent versions of same--i.e., 8 x mile, 10 x mile. Just to walk into 12 x mile at a fast-ish pace, even with the 3 minute rests, is quite a load. But the OP is the sort of runner who is also, apparently, able to run a 20-miler. That fact alone makes this workout seem like an interesting, worthy, if stressful day's work.

Yes, take some rest days!

I think that is unnecessary. I had a coach @ NU that also never listened to me on workouts that didn't make sense. I am doing half-marathon training and I will max out @ 8-10x1 mile. the pace also seems to be too fast to do this workout. I say back off the pace and see how long you can hang. Let the others know too.

Don't let these guys scare you out of working hard. The more stress your body goes to, the better. Just make sure you recover. You can do anything you want, as long as you can recover.

Yeah, this doesn't make too much sense. If you were a marathoner I'd say sure. But for 8k work? I guess it would kinda, sorta make sense if it were really early in the season, but this late in the season running repeat miles at 20 seconds slower than race pace...not sure about that.

We did precede the workout with easier versions. I know a lot of people are slamming this workout, but I feel like I received a great deal of benefit from it. It was not the hardest thing I have ever done in terms of a workout, but it was probably the most tiring. I think it was a mental boost more than anything to get through it consistently and by myself.

The reason I started this thread was because I had never heard of anyone doing this much volume for mile repeats. I talked to my coach about it today and we were both happy with the workout and feel like it was a step in the right direction. I never intended this thread to get on the front page or for it to end up bashing my coach (it's easy to blow something out of proportion from hundreds of miles away while sitting on a computer).

Thanks to everyone who passed on the information regarding the workout.

Glad that it went well and that you and your coach are happy with the result. It sounds like he knows what he's doing.

These people saying that it's only a good marathon workout have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. It's a good early-season workout for ANY EVENT 5k OR OVER. That's because it works threshold quite well, which is by far the most significant factor in all races 5k and up. Oh, and also, it is no better of a marathon workout than a 10k workout. It has implications for both, but is specific to neither race.

It is also not "late season" for college XC. You should just now be shifting to race-specific training. Early season / fundamental phase is for improving your fitness. That's exactly what this series of workouts (8 reps, 10 reps, and finally 12) was aimed to do. I'm guessing this is probably the last or second to last time you'll do the workout.

And like I mentioned yesterday, besides the threshold benefit, this works on muscular endurance. And while the workout was not done at 8k pace, it was close enough (and the volume was large enough) that there will be significant crossover on the muscular endurance side. Major benefit, especially for XC.

Hey bro good on you, if the work out worked for you then great. Everybody gets to their goals in different ways. I personally thought it was a bit too much volume but if you handled it well maybe it was what you needed. Will you do the lets run community a favor and continue to post a little info on how your season goes and any other workouts that are out side the norm. Maybe we can all learn from your season. Thanks.

I'm interested in hearing what times you've ran this season prior to this workout.

Agreed, there is NOT a strict distinction between running 5k up to marathon when you're outside of your specific phase. Not only does this challenge your threshold but it works extremely well to develop muscular endurance. The length of the workout is the reasoning for that. That is huge for the ability to not only recover quicker within harder wkouts or starve off fatigue during longer races. This workout will pay dividends for ANY runner who can handle the volume of it, whether by experience or proper periodization within your training cycles.

Simple statement: As a coach, if you know the rules, you can break the rules. Too many posters here are staying within the simple confines of a black and white world of training. Look to the science behind this workout, understand it and then make a judgement

I am not sure why this is still on the front page, but I'm glad it has fueled some discussion.

I will do what I can with posting workouts, but I want to make sure it is okay with my coach first. I did not feel comfortable posting this in the first place, but I was frustrated and wanted answers. Anything else that we do that is "outside the norm" I will post, at my coach's discretion.

The times were based off my previous XC bests (25:30, 32:06). We were not pleased with my 8K time earlier this year and he wanted me to do a pace that I was comfortable with for 12 repeats. I said 5:20 because that was my former "T" pace, and I went out and did it.

typical question wrote:

I am not sure why this is still on the front page, but I'm glad it has fueled some discussion.

I will do what I can with posting workouts, but I want to make sure it is okay with my coach first. I did not feel comfortable posting this in the first place, but I was frustrated and wanted answers. Anything else that we do that is "outside the norm" I will post, at my coach's discretion.

The times were based off my previous XC bests (25:30, 32:06). We were not pleased with my 8K time earlier this year and he wanted me to do a pace that I was comfortable with for 12 repeats. I said 5:20 because that was my former "T" pace, and I went out and did it.

Not trying to be a jerk, but noone knows who you are or where you run. So why not just post your stuff anonymously like the rest of us?

We would love to see what you are running and how your races go without your coach playing big brother.

Depends if you're doing a marathon or not. My former coach was a a great advocate of that type of workout which he prescribed 3 to 5 weeks before a marathon. But his version was 15x1 mile at marathon pace with 60 seconds recovery. And I would only do it once in my buildup. I remember running 2:37 ish at The Gold Coast marathon in Australia 4 weeks after doing one such workout. Unfortunately I can't remember the exact times I ran, but whatever they were I can't recall being wiped out. So this session does have its place but your coach needs to know what he's doing when he prescribes it.

Otherwise I think it would be a total waste of time. Assuming you're not racing marathons, what purpose would it serve?

"Total waste of time" Okay I'll stick my hands up and admit I made a rash statement. Congratulations to the op on getting through his session. And great to read the varied opinions. Thank you to all those enlightening views

Mybe then if applied correctly this session could be of benefit to even 10k guys and college cross country runners.

The great thing about this website is that it's a fantastic source for training info.

Just do the work out!

The difference between Runners in the US and Kenyans, is that in the US runners over analyze coaches while in Kenya they just do it!

Even if that training might not suit you, of course the work that you would have input won't go to waste and someday you might thank your coach!

Focus focus and reap reap!

Good Job with your workout. I saw nothing wrong with it, personally I would have said about another 5 seconds slower and a minute less recovery. But that's just my take.

It's amazing how many people on this list think "Daniels" is the only person that knows anything about coaching. Where actually he really doesn't bring anything new to the table... His "VDOT" is just another method of matching up a persons abilities with proper paces. There are many more "charts" out there that does the same thing.

Every one is different. But this work-out would have done me very little good in college, and in fact reminds me of some of the less than efficient work-outs Div. 1 volume fests I did in college. Lots of time spent - lots of distance - at least on paper - but I am not sure it furthers the objective of getting in top shape.

Three minutes rest? I usually experienced this standing around. One of the previous posters mentioned make this a 6 by one mile workout - I agree, but with a 400 meter jog. Nothing would cause me to spin my wheels more than standing around in a work-out between intervals. Even then, in cross country what I found a laudable goal in training was to be able to run a solid 4 mile run at race pace - and ideally, have the 4 mile time incrementally improve over the season. I am not sure that 6 X 1 mile answers that purpose, although it is a common sort of workout.

I know what you mean about the volume, but I think this workout is just as effective as a 6x1 mile with 1 minute rest. The point was to stay within threshold and it worked. I think the workout would have been doable with 2 minutes rest, but it would have resulted in a completely different stimulus.

For the first six, I made the recovery an active jog for 2 minutes (~7:00 pace) and the last minute was spent getting ready for the next one. Around 7, the recovery jog got shorter and I felt like I needed all 3 minutes. Not once in this workout did I feel like I was redlining.

I think a good guideline for this workout would be:

6x1 mile: 1 minute rest

8x1 mile: 1.5-2 minute rest

10x1 mile: 2-2.5 minute rest

12x 1 mile: 2.5-3 minute rest

I think all would provide the same benefit. In my eyes, when it comes down to it, it's just running. As long as you are smart and do not go out of control on your workouts, there is a lot room to tweak your workouts to find what works. I spent 50-55 minutes at my threshold (assuming I didn't reach it until a minute in during each split). If you told any coach, "I comfortably spent 50-55 minutes at threshold pace" they would be happy with it.

glad to here. keep us updated on race times and results. hope it helps. i wouldn't do that workout, but then again i'm a 1500 guy. too much for me

this almost sounds like a quenton cassidy workout