Marathon Training Thread - Week Ending 8/8

Pablo, the long run was magnificent. It was definitely a huge confidence booster, especially since I have been doubting my prospects of achieving a sub 3. I started out fairly slow but definitely brought it home for the last 14 miles.

What I have been trying to do is alternate between long slow runs and long runs with a fast finish (something I picked up from mcmillanrunning.com) which I am sure everyone here is familiar with, seeing as everyone here appears to have a plethora of marathons and marathon training experience under their belts. This week was supposed to be a long slow run, which I was shooting to do 17 miles in 2:16:00, exactly 8:00 minute pace. From the get go I couldn't settle for 8:00 minute pace because I felt so fresh and the weather was a gift from God. Yet I still wanted to run 2:16:00 for my total time, so that was easy to do since I was running on an unmarked course. Everything felt easy and relaxed, which has me pumped for the Columbus Marathon since my goal pace is only about 30 seconds per mile faster. And given the right conditions, I feel that I have the correct training to make that a reality.

As far as training goes, I want to know what everyone thinks about the Yasso 800's workout. Is it actually a good indicator of what you can do for the marathon? Keep in mind, I'm new to marathon training, and running for that matter, so whatever I read I cannot base an opinion on since I have little experience in the area, so any thoughts on this workout/suggestions for other types of workouts would be greatly appreciated.

Furthermore...how do you guys bold each others names?

PABLO: What's it like to win a race by 4 MINUTES? I am jealous.

Marmite: Still a very solid race. I definitely don't feel sharp enough to race and have trouble committing to paying to run when I feel tired... I wonder what you placed with your 1:12 from last year. Did conditions change? Solid at this stage regardless. BTW, I ran a 10miler before Boston last year and completely bombed out after a few miles. Who knows why? Press on.

Farmette: I need to start doing more loops with a water bottle on my porch or hit spots with water. Often I run with a few bucks and dash into a 7-11 to buy a water bottle. For this run I kept it to my normal long temp loop w/ no 7-11. But when I get dehydrated my performance tanks and everything gets harder. Drinking during the marathon is a BIG DEAL for me. I actually count my volume of fluid during the marathon. Call me crazy. I think it made a big difference in Boston.

pablo : btw, that was an impressive XC run. I don't know how you managed that off of your tiring 100+ weeks with no taper. I have a 10k this coming weekend but i am considering not doing it because i feel i would need to taper a bit to post a good result but i don't want to reduce my volume now.

Ya, i've been getting massively dehydrated even though i am drinking (to some extent, obviously not enough). When i completed my 21 miler on Sunday i had to hold onto a streetlight to avoid falling. My head was spinning....

DM: I think the Letsrun consensus is that Yassos are a necessary but not sufficient indicator of marathon pace. I don't do them personally. The long run I did this weekend is a pretty darn good reality check on your marathon fitness. Some do a 10+10 workout where you do 10 at your normal long run pace and then 10 at MP. A tough workout that will keep you honest! Not sure how others feel about the 10+10 but I've read they are a fairly common trailing tool.

CTA, Pablo, PJ - thanks for the support guys, it's genuinely appreciated. It's been a strange build-up this time around, the training feels better, but the races are worse! Will definitely just press on.

CTA - training this week is planned to be ~90 miles. No sessions until Friday. Perhaps do a hilly 15 on Weds but at an easy pace. Likely be mile reps on Friday, then there's a hilly, off-road 30k run on Sunday. Done this one a bunch of times and usually do it as a progression run, so will likely do that again.

PJ - there was more depth at this race last year as 72:51 got me 7th 12 months ago.

Thanks for the input PJ, I'm definitely going to incorporate a 10 + 10 long run into my training. I'll probably do the Yasso's as well, just to see how I feel about them.

mrb - don't worry about that 7-mile tempo not going how you wanted, that's just the ebb and flow of training, especially for the marathon. Your training had been solid, and when you are doing some longer workouts, it catches up with you. It just takes longer to recover from those longer workouts, so that might mean cutting back to two workouts per week.

If/when you do some hard long runs, you might only do one other workout per week (those hard long runs can take a few days to bounce back from). Remember, you did that 27 mile run just over a week ago, and while you said it felt fine and Monday's workout felt good, that fatigue lingers.

Still building:

M: 12

Tues - Sat.: 13/day

Sun: 18

95.

As always, great to see everyone's very impressive training.

Richmond Nov 13

goal 3:40

Mon off

Tues bike/2hrs

Weds bike/1h30min

Thurs bike / 1h30min

Fri bike /2h30min

Sat off (vacation travel)

Sun elliptical/2hrs

Spent the week on the Outer Banks and decided to make a serious attempt at getting a few foot issues healed by sticking to long bike rides. (Right heel and left achilles were too sore for comfort after thirteen mile run on Aug. 1 and I do not want to spend the next 13 weeks trying to train 'around' injuries.) The break from any running seems to have paid dividends so I plan to give it a few more days just to be sure and get back into running next weekend. Until then, it will be more spinning and elliptical.

Also, great training and racing everyone! Wish I could join you with a race report ocassionally. Reading this thread does help keep my head right direction training-wise, so thanks!

GoalRace: toronto

GoalTime: 3:1x

56 Miles, with a long run of 20 (my first since illness) and two light workouts: 6x400 on tuesday and 6 x800 on thursday.

Nice work everyone.

Luck with the injuries. It sounds incredibly frustrating.

Dunder: I think the Yasso 800's can be a good indicator if you cut down the recovery time. If I remember correctly they call for 2-2:30min rest between repeats. When I was gearing up for my first marathon a couple years ago my buddy/quasi-coach said that for the Yasso 800's to be a real indicator I should only take 1min between repeats. Although the workout hurt like hell, I ended up averaging 2:32s for 10 and went on to run 2:33 six weeks later. The 1min recovery is perfect for marathon training as you get to run fast because they are half-mile repeats, but you can't hammer them without blowing the workout (ie. ripping fast 400-800's in college off of 2-3min rest).

Also, has anyone ever tried doing two 10-12mi runs, one in the AM and one in the PM, with at least half of each run being at MP pace. I read about this on a Renato Canova thread and thought it might be worth trying.

Here are the other workouts from that thread if anyone is interested:

Aerobic Power Workouts (one per week):

1) 10 x 800 w 1:30 jog @ 110-112% of MP

2) 6 x 1 mile w 2 min jog @ 108-109% of MP

3) 4 x 2 mile w 3 min jog @ 105-106% of MP

4) 3 x 3 mile w 4 min jog @ 103-104% of MP

5) 2 x 5 mile w 5 min jog @ 101-102% of MP

6) 6 mile continuous run @ 104-105% of MP

7) 8 mile progression run @ 100-106% of MP

Aerobic Endurance Workouts (one per week):

1) 18-22 miles steady run @ 90-95% of MP

2) 24-26 miles easy run @ 80-85% of MP

3) 18-22 miles progression run @ 85-100% of MP

4) 12-15 miles simulation run @ 100% of MP

5) 20 miles - last 5-10 miles @ 100% of MP

6) 20 miles incorporating 10 x 800 @ 103% of MP w 800 jog

7) 6-7 miles @ 85% + 6-7 miles @ 100% of MP (workout done AM and PM)

Awesome post, Abu.

Pittsburgh Joe wrote:

PABLO: What's it like to win a race by 4 MINUTES? I am jealous.

Honestly...kinda boring, not as cool as you might think. It's definitely more exciting to be battling with someone the whole race only to pull away the last half mile.

Pittsburgh Joe wrote:

Farmette: I need to start doing more loops with a water bottle on my porch or hit spots with water. Often I run with a few bucks and dash into a 7-11 to buy a water bottle. For this run I kept it to my normal long temp loop w/ no 7-11. But when I get dehydrated my performance tanks and everything gets harder. Drinking during the marathon is a BIG DEAL for me. I actually count my volume of fluid during the marathon. Call me crazy. I think it made a big difference in Boston.

+1000 to this. A few weeks ago, I was having a pretty good long run, but was doing a loop (22 mile loop) that was very secluded (no water fountains, 7-11's, etc.) and I severley struggled the last 3 miles just because I was soooo dehydrated. I wasn't right that entire next week, legs aching, getting side stiches, etc. I found out the hard way the importance of hydration not only on the run, but in between runs as well. I may be talking out of my ass on this one, but I see my muscles as "sponge like". Where it takes massive amounts of water to keep them lubricated, and once they dry up...you become more prone to cramping, pulled muscles, etc.

I believe that was my main problem at Boston this year...fueling and hydration. I only took water from every other stop and only consumed 2 gels. I'm still learning the ropes of hydration and fueling on the run, but I'm definitely going with a better strategy for Twin Cities this year.

mrb - I agree with DPM regarding a slight delay for the onset of your fatigue. You're in excellent shape, no doubt about that. But you know the ins-and-outs of training...to think you'll be able to nail every workout as planned just isn't reasonable. In a way, that's what makes us stronger runners, how we bounce back from a few failed workouts.

dunder mifflin - You've already got some good advice on the Yasso's, but I'll add some of my input. I did the Yasso's exactly how they're "supposed" to be done last year prior to Chicago. 10x800 @ marathon time in min:sec, with equal recovery. I averaged 2:27 for the Yasso's without breaking a sweat and ran 2:34 in Chicago. But I also had 8-9 years before that focusing on speed, so my leg speed was still pretty good. Since you're fairly new to running, they might be a better indicator for you...but it definitely isn't the true indicator workout it advertises.

Abu - Seriously, thanks for that! I remember reading that thread a while back, but kinda lost track of it.

Goal race - don't have one yet, I just want to marathon train. Being realistic, my next marathon will be London in April 2011.

Goal time - I never give myself time goals for races, especially not marathons. My PR is 2.36.

Monday - a.m. 8 easy / p.m. 4 easy

Tuesday - a.m. 8 easy / p.m. 4 easy

Wednesday - a.m. 9 easy/steady / p.m 4 easy

Thursday - woke up and felt like shit a.m. 4 easy / p.m. rest

Friday - a.m. 5 easy / p.m 9 steady

Saturday - woke up and felt like I was dying - sore throat and headache - no running

Sunday - same as Saturday

Total miles for the week = 53. Staying illness free has been tough these last two or three years. I tend to get viruses every month or so which completely stop training. I wish I knew how not to get them.

More or less everyone else's training looks very good and this does inspire me. Next week I'd really like to do a long run.

Sorry for the Late post...

Some unreal training here! I've been kind of down about my training. I'd say of the past 5 or 6 workouts, I've cut 4 short due to fatigue. I'm attributing this to my high mileage (hopefully not OT'ing) and heat... I mentioned last week that I'll be taking a down week this week then start the transition from quantity to quality. I'm crossing my fingers that this pays off and my workouts start going well.

Race: Chicago (10/10)

Goal: 2:36

Last week went as follows:

Mo: (16), 6.5AM, 9.5PM easy

Tu: (13), 90min medium-long run with 3 hard efforts up bridges. Last 30 mins was a death march. donate my legs to science fiction.

We: (15), 9AM, 6PM felt better

Th: (19), 12AM 8by1000m w/ 200m jog recovery (3:48 down to 3:31) slooowww, 7PM

Fr: (7), 7AM 6 strides... found out I have a triathlon on sat morning

Sat: (13), 9AM w/ triathlon (3 in tri, 6 cool down), 4PM

Sun: (12), 12PM easy

Total Mileage: 95 miles

Past 3 weeks: 102, 95, 95

Tuesday's w/o was decent up until the 60min mark, then ran probably 9 min pace home. Because of this, I ran a much slower pace on Thursday workout to complete the planned amount of 1000s. Tired of stopping workouts short! This was a confidence booster only because i completed it w/ ease.

As for the Tri: This was my first one ever... My GF won a free entry a while back and signed me up. I thought it was on August 17th, only to find out the day before it was on Aug 7th! Skipped my PM run on friday and decided to give it a shot. I finished 13th overall in a pretty competitive Tri. 32nd on swim leg, 110th on bike leg, and 1st on run... Awful Transitions! such a n00bie! Learned a lot and have tons of room to improve. I think I took the bike leg way too easy, but didn't know what I was doing. my 5k was like 17:23... I did not feel like a runner at all. my first mile felt awful and I was thinking how embarrassing this was going to be. it was a 6 minute mile, then i loosened up and my next mile was 5:20.

This week is going to be a recovery week for me with a 2mile XC race on Saturday. My High School has an Alumni Race every summer. Alumni vs. XC team. It's gunna be fun.

Have a great week everyone!

pablo wrote:

I believe that was my main problem at Boston this year...fueling and hydration. I only took water from every other stop and only consumed 2 gels. I'm still learning the ropes of hydration and fueling on the run, but I'm definitely going with a better strategy for Twin Cities this year.

Hydration is a great topic. I hate races where they serve water in those tiny cups. I'm a moron and i don't slow down and i grab a cup, half of it is gone at that point and i only manage to get maybe a quarter of a cup down, the rest ending up on my chest. The worst is when you get gatorade all over your face and up your nose.

My favorite races have been where they gave out water bottles. However, the best was a half-marathon where they distributed small plastic bags filled with water (you chew off a corner and then squeeze into your mouth - great). I grabbed 3 of them at each stop and gradually consumed all the water.

But those standard plastic cups really suck. At Rotterdam this year, they supposedly solved the problem by introducing a "patented" cup cover that allegedly prevented the water from spilling out. That was totallu bogus.

Anyone know what goes on at Berlin?

Plenty more great training............

Abu - thanks for posting up the Canova stuff, I always find his thoughts interesting to read.

CTA - unless things have changed since last year then it'll be plastic cups in Berlin, which I find irritating for exactly the reasons you mentioned.

Goal: Chicago in 2:30ish

M - AM 75 min run w/ 5-6 miles around 6 min. pace, PM 30 min easy. 15 miles

T - AM 80 min easy, PM 30 min easy. 15 miles

W - AM Short track workout 400, 800, 1200, 1600, 800 w/ recovery 1/2 the duration of previous interval (so 2:30 rest after a 5 min. 1600). 77, 2:31, 3:48, 5:04, 2:27. Humid as Hades. Longer cooldown, PM 30 min really easy. 15 miles

TR - AM 85 min easy, PM 40 min easy. 17 miles

F - AM 9 miles steady/hard, PM 45 min easy. Felt crappy in the PM. 15 miles

Sat - 2 hrs. 5 min easy progressing to steady with a group. Felt really good! 17 miles.

Sun - Off. Just needed some rest

94 miles

Mixing in quality here and there but keeping it unstructured with the heat. Looking forward to a temperature drop!

Lots of good training being reported on this thread; keep up the good work.

CTA wrote:

The worst is when you get gatorade all over your face and up your nose.

I hate that.

Its funnier seeing someone else do it though. My wife ran a half a few weeks ago and did the water on the head trick. Took off her hat, dumped the water. Except it was gatorade. She smelled very citrusy at the finish.