Aerobic glycolysis depends on...?

McGurk wrote:

It is your thyroid, and eat some meat. If you are Vegan and eating too much soy this will exagerate your hypothyroid state. If you want to run fast eat some meat and get a full thyroid panel at you next check-up. Also, if you have been running HypoT for a while your adrenals could be fatigued; this will slow you down real fast.

thanks for mentioning adrenal gland, I heard once they can be fired after hypothyroid phase, but forgot. My thyroid is +/- OK nowadays, once I refilled vitamin D it works again, at least problems are undetectable in thyroid panel (or it show THS only to be slightly elevated). But again, my muscle cells might have low concentration of hormones.

About meat - I suppose if Kenyans can live without it, I can too.

I don't eat any soy, for various reasons - one of them is relationship with thyroid, another - it taste like crap :D

Conversions may be stupid, but everyone does them.But you are right about the assumption. Purdy assumes it more than most. Just to clarify Purdy, since I said it's better for comparing sprints to distances. I threw Purdy, Daniels and McMillan out there, but they are 3 estimators which attempt to say different things.Purdy tables (like IAAF or Hungarian tables) attempt to compare different athletes at different events, e.g. addressing the question who has the better world record, Bolt or Bekele? Purdy is based on Portuguese scoring tables which are based on very old world records (1938?)-- admittedly an arbitrary reference, but still seems to work well today.Daniels and McMillan are more oriented to predicting what the same athlete can do in different events. McMillan is likely more realistic than Daniels for sprints -- it is well known that Daniels curve-fitted equations are not accurate for the shorter events (< 1500m).So I wouldn't be surprised if you and "tomtom's" friends find McMillan the most accurate.My point, is simply that according to Purdy, a 70 second 400m performance is not significantly better than a 48:00 10K performance (when compared to 1938 world records). Purdy is the best table to make that assessment.If you can run 32 high for 10K, but 61.8 for 400m, that reinforces that you are not a 400m specialist, which you freely admit, and the Purdy score reflects that by giving you a lower score.

surly wrote:

also the conversions are stupid. usually they will assume an equal training status across events, which usually doesn't make a whole lot of sense unless your name is Rod Dixon. most of us have some genetic inclination toward a specific type of event. i can't say i agree with any one set of conversions. but for Purdy to say a 65 sec 400 equals a 44 min 10k? would my 61.8 400 equal a 39 minute 10k or so? cause i can run 32 high. i have found mcmillan's conversions to be the best.

What is your percentage body fat? You have to be careful here because some of the methods give very low results.

I agree with rekrunner, your distance times are not slow compared to your 400.

Well, I'm sure vegans can become champions, but it's also easy to get vegan diets wrong. Sounds like you have already checked all the obvious problems.I hope I clarified the difference between Purdy and McMillan well enough just above: McMillan is probably better for predictions for a single athlete, while Purdy attempts to compare two different performances (from the same or different athletes). But to conclude, the difference between you and your friends is, according to me interpreting Purdy, is that they are more likely distance specialists (either by natural preference, or lack of specific training), and you seem to be, let's be diplomatic, neither a sprint specialist nor a distance specialist. (Sorry, I'm not trying to be negative or insulting). For whatever reason, your Purdy curve is too flat, which, as "surly" points out is not typical.I would echo the advice to see a few doctors (sounds like you've done a fair bit already), since I am surely not a medical doctor, nor a dietician.(I am also not a coach but I'll link you to others.) But assuming it's a training problem and not a medical problem, it seems to me you need to find out what kind of training you respond to. I have two contradictory ideas. Maybe if one doesn't work, the other will.If you are always training with your friends maybe all of your "easy" runs are way too fast for you. You are running sub-5:00's when you should be running 6:00+. This could mean you never fully recover for the next hard session, and you are constantly in a stale state bordering on overtraining.Based on your decent times for 400m/1K, it would seem that you are a good candidate for a "Hadd Phase 1" (or Lydiard marathon conditioning phase) type of long term development to strengthen your endurance and stamina. This slowly builds up to a high volume combination of easy, long, tempo, and fartlek running (described in detail in other threads). Hadd gives very conservative HR based guidelines, which means in the beginning you may have to slow way down for your easy, long, and tempo runs. If your problem is a complete lack of easy runs, this should make your easy running faster, all across the board, and you should see improvements start 3-6 weeks up to 3-6 months.But since you said you've already been training for 2 years, including lots of "aerobic" work, you may simply not respond well to this kind of training. You may simply lack the raw material (ST fibers) to develop this way.Antonio Cabral has two related threads which may help you. The first is about "Intermittent" (Repetitions/Interval) training (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=825534), and the second is the Antonio/Hadd "2 kinds of runners" thread where he contrasts the training required for an "ST" runner (Carlos Lopes) versus an "FT" runner (Fernando Mamede) (http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=2375989). Rather than building up your endurance from the bottom, in a Hadd or Lydiard like way, it may be that you respond better to sessions like 10x400m at 10K pace with 45 second recovery. If all else fails, it may be a lack of beer (here I am a specialist) -- piwo sprawiać przyjemność (excuse my Polish :-D).Good luck,

"Kenyan runners tend to eat a limited variety of foods, and that was certainly the case with these elite athletes. Most of their nutrients came from vegetable sources, and the "staple" edibles were bread, boiled rice, poached potatoes, boiled porridge, cabbage, kidney beans and ugali (a well-cooked, corn-meal paste that's molded into balls and dipped into other foods for flavoring). Meat (primarily beef) was eaten just four times a week in fairly small amounts (about 100 grams -- 3.5 ounces a day). A fair amount of tea with milk and sugar was imbibed on a daily basis (more on this in a moment)."As an aside, 4 ounces of cooked beef contains 56-162mg of carnitine (chicken only 3-5mg). My opinion is that the little beef they eat (almost a pound a week - a pound more than I eat) is critical in their diet.

tomtom wrote:

About meat - I suppose if Kenyans can live without it, I can too.

No meat = no B12....No???

He said he checked for low B12. Besides vitamin supplements (fortified cereals?) I don't know any good non-meat source of B12. There are some plant sources (algae?) for Vitamin B12, but I heard about problems absorbing it.But a good liver sandwich...

ray wrote:

No meat = no B12....No???

Here we go, another link:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_b12

Says there that B12 coming from Spirulina, and some forms of algae, can cause standard tests for B12 deficiency to indicate normal levels, yet they have no bio-activity in humans (.e.g. B12 from include laver (a seaweed), barley grass, and human gut bacteria, is inadequate).

Also, many (but not all) of the B12 functions can be replaced by sufficient quantities of folic acid (but this could lead to dementia and irreversible neurological damage!) -- better read the whole link.

B12 also plays a role in energy and endurance. See also:

http://ods.od.nih.gov/factsheets/vitaminb12.asp#h2

Maybe you just need to switch breakfast cereals.

Some nutritional yeasts have B12 -- maybe my beer suggestion wasn't too bad after all. (Read the label though).

rekrunner wrote:

Purdy tables (like IAAF or Hungarian tables) attempt to compare different athletes at different events, e.g. addressing the question who has the better world record, Bolt or Bekele? Purdy is based on Portuguese scoring tables which are based on very old world records (1938?)-- admittedly an arbitrary reference, but still seems to work well today.

Ahhh, I see where is the problem.

Purdy tables make my 65 seconds 400m equal to 46' 10k, which means both results require same amount of training.

But it works only when 400m guy train sprints, and 10k guy train distance running. Distance runner would most likely score MUCH higher Purdy in 10k - marathon than in 400m sprint.

You see, I never trained sprint. And I'm certainly not "natural born sprinter", in my youth school i was literally slowest of my whole class - no guy ran slower than me. I was always more like endurance oriented.

ps. no, I was not vegan back then :P

welInow wrote:

What is your percentage body fat? You have to be careful here because some of the methods give very low results.

I agree with rekrunner, your distance times are not slow compared to your 400.

BF - lower range, I'm very skinny, still it's way above "dangerous" limit.

My distance times compared to 400 are not so bad for sprinter, but they are for guy who never trained sprint.

Thanks alot, I will read them tonight.

See, I believe it's something with my body. Probably side effect of hypothyroidism - like someone mentioned above, it might be (for example) something with adrenal glands. This is kind of advice I'm looking for.

There are few hints pointing out that it's not just training. First, carnitine supplementation increased my easy run tempo by 30''/km. For example, vegans might have slighty lower carnitine concentration - but hypothyroid patients have WAY lower than average. Maybe there are other conditions, too, such as mentioned above adrenaline gland problem. Maybe something I never heard about. Carnitine is not supposed to increase running speed, it was tested few times already.

Another point - breathing frequency. I can breathe easily at very high %HrMax, much easier than others.

Maybe my body cannot produce capillary, as side effect of thyroid problems. Maybe my liver can't turn lactate into glycogen (this is one of liver functions while running). Maybe...

Right now I'm ruling out thyroid problems by stymulating hormone production - works well so far, my arms and feet are much warmer and I feel much better (yes, it can be done without artifical hormones as long as thyroid gland is not damaged). Another possibility - fluoride poisoning, I drank ALOT of greentea, which might lead to thyroid problems, basically fluorosis give same symptoms as hypothyroidism. Everything depend on fluoride amount in my tea, it can be anywhere between 0,2 mg / cup up to 3 mg. If it's fluoride, in few weeks I should be ok.

tomtom wrote:

Right now I'm ruling out thyroid problems by stymulating hormone production - works well so far, my arms and feet are much warmer and I feel much better (yes, it can be done without artifical hormones as long as thyroid gland is not damaged).

Hello again tomtom. I'm curious how you're doing this. I promise this time I won't drag you into a 7-page argument about western medicine...

citation needed wrote:

Hello again tomtom. I'm curious how you're doing this. I promise this time I won't drag you into a 7-page argument about western medicine...

Thyroid gland need:

- selenium

- zinc

- iodine

- vitamin D

- vitamin E, A and other antioxidants (not as crucial)

- omega 3 and 6 fatty acids

while fluoride and bromine supress thyroid functions

So, basically I'm on high iodine supplementation (mg's/day)- first it was month on very high doses, they shutted down thyroid but effectively refilled iodine amount in skin, bones and so on. Then I lowered to like 0,5-0,8 mg iodine/day, which actually stimulate thyroid gland to produce more hormones (can even cause borderline hyperthyroidism).

Somewhat risky, as there is danger of aggravating some autoimmune thyroid diseases, but I ruled them out by medical tests. There is also danger of iod-basedow (not sure how it's spelled in English), but dangers of low iodine amount in body are greater than this.

I live in area where half of population can't get enough iodine, we have like nothing of iodine in air and in local food. With vegan diet, without sea fish, there was possibility to deficiency without clear symptoms.

fluoride detox - around 50 mg of borone / day, in form of boric acid. Side effects of borone doesn't appear untill 500 mg / day or something similar, so it's basically safe. Borone can flush fluoride even if it goes to the bone (in clinical trials it cured skeletal fluorosis).

selenium, vitamin E, zinc etc - supplements and some forms of healthy food.

omega 3 and 6 - healthy oils, such as cold processed olive and flaxseed oils.

vitamin D - like 5000 IU / day, I had very strong deficiency and never ran another test once I cured symptoms and get enough sun, but now it's middle of winter, so I might need more. It's very hard to test blood for vitamin D where I live, and tests are likely to be inaccurate.

Results so far - very strong hair, warmer hands, icreased natural resistance (bye bye sneezing), I'm not tired when I wake up (which happened before), brain fog lifted and last but not least - seems my shin splints almost disappeared. Before this treatment I though it's just winter depression or something, now I see it had something to do with thyroid gland.

Ah, one more thing - some studies suggest, that high doses of iodine can flush down bromine and fluoride, this is one of main reasons why I started with very high doses of iodine before switching to intermediate.

Interesting, thanks. I take it salt isn't iodized in Poland? Is there fluoride in your tapwater?

Well I'm going to stay out of any medical recommendations, and given your thyroid history, you look like you need to sort that out first.

I did find the quick glance at B12 (see links above) potentially interesting for you. Specifically that it is linked with energy and endurance (breaking down fatty acids for energy), and that vegans can test normally for B12 with standard tests, but still be deficient, if "pseudo-B12" substances are ingested, because they are not bio-available to humans. This looks easily fixed by changing your breakfast cereal (or eating termites). I don't want to tell you to eat liver sandwiches.

citation needed wrote:

Interesting, thanks. I take it salt isn't iodized in Poland? Is there fluoride in your tapwater?

Salt is iodized, but it's same amount for whole country - and my region is least if we count natural iodine. So, while people near sea might get more than enough, some people near me can get serious deficiency. Depend on amount of salt consumed, and I'm not salt lover.

There is no fluoride in water, at least none than I know about (in post-soviet country everything is possible), but as I said above, I was drinking alot of greentea, possibly overdosing fluoride for years. No way to tell how much of it was in my tea, tho.

@Rekrunner - yes, I know, I'm using B12 supplements with 1000% of RDA.

rekrunner wrote:

I did find the quick glance at B12 (see links above) potentially interesting for you. Specifically that it is linked with energy and endurance (breaking down fatty acids for energy)

(stupid me, just realized something)

another thing to check out - despite using B12 supplements (or eating meat), people with damaged liver may develop symptoms of deficiency. There are (at least) two forms of B12, and liver is where they are converted.

something else mention - hypothyroid patients nearly always have B12 deficiency, despite diet. They either don't absorb it or their liver can't use/convert it effectively.

Seems I need to read about B12 role in breaking fatty acids for energy.

ray wrote:

No meat = no B12....No???

seems I missed whole part about B12, ok, just to clean it out:

No animal on this planet syntetize B12. No plant is able to do it. Only bacterium can.

There are no plant sources of B12, alot of animals are vegans, like monkeys, cows, horses... they can't syntetize their own vitamin.. how they survive?

The answer is - water. Bacterium able to produce B12 is very common. There is ALOT of B12 in plain, clean, river water, some research suggest even 5000% of RDA in one liter. Possibly much, much more in naturally polluted water.

Yet there is no vitamin in tapwater, so vegans are doomed to use supplements.