Question for Renato Canova on long runs under the threshhold

What's the difference between "easy" and 1.3x 5k RP?

1.3x 5k RP is exactly the fast end of Jack Daniel's easy pace from his calculator, or the same pace Farah/Rupp were doing all their easy days except when really beat up after workouts. That's still barely above resting lactate.

I think any runner could run that pace for the whole week without issues if there are no hard workouts or races to recover from, so the weeks with 2 sessions of 1.3x 5k RP and the rest even easier (jogging pretty much) seem very easy, even for a fundamental period.

Some people can even run short runs at MP during a whole week, which would be significantly faster than 1.3x 5k RP (~1.2x 5k RP).

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

Some people can even run short runs at MP during a whole week, which would be significantly faster than 1.3x 5k RP (~1.2x 5k RP).

MP is 1.14 x 5k RP

Here is the guide:

Aerobic maintenance & recovery (1mmol):..........1.33 x 5k RP = 74% HRmax

Marathon Pace (2.5mmol):...................................1.14 x 5k RP = 85% HRmax

Half Marathon Pace (3mmol):..............................1.11 x 5k RP = 88% HRmax

Lactate Threshold (4mmol):.................................1.08 x 5k RP = 91% HRmax

5k RP:...........................................................................98%HRmax

Do these not numbers not check out, LateRunnerPhil???

hr measurement wrote:

Here is the guide:

Aerobic maintenance & recovery (1mmol):..........1.33 x 5k RP = 74% HRmax

Marathon Pace (2.5mmol):...................................1.14 x 5k RP = 85% HRmax

Half Marathon Pace (3mmol):..............................1.11 x 5k RP = 88% HRmax

Lactate Threshold (4mmol):.................................1.08 x 5k RP = 91% HRmax

5k RP:...........................................................................98%HRmax

Do these not numbers not check out, LateRunnerPhil???

These numbers are very good. I agree with them. With ~1.2 I mean around, a well-trained marathon specialist will have his MP at 1.14 x 5k RP, but most runners are probably a bit weaker in the marathon than a Jack Daniel's calculator would suggest, so for them it is more like 1.2x.

But these numbers also confirm what I was saying before - 1.3x 5k pace is not a very hard effort, that's ~75% max HR so definitely around the upper range of easy pace but not at steady state. Running this pace every day in a week without workouts should be no problem and no over stress.

LateRunnerPhil, question for you:

I recall in the past you saying something with regard to minimum training HR to get aerobic benefit (or other), and did you not say it was 65%MaxHR or 60%MaxHR? And maybe your source on that was Jack Daniels?

The paces are a translation of what Canova gave for his 14:00 5K runner example. That’s all.

For a runner with a 17 minute 5K (5:28/mi) Race Pace X 1.3 is 7:10/mi. I don’t think that’s an easy pace for that runner whatever the Daniels calculator says. I think it’s a moderate pace. Maybe some runners should do it more often than others in this scenario. I don’t know, I was just transcribing what one of the greatest coaches in the world wrote.

Working Stiff wrote:

The paces are a translation of what Canova gave for his 14:00 5K runner example. That’s all.

For a runner with a 17 minute 5K (5:28/mi) Race Pace X 1.3 is 7:10/mi. I don’t think that’s an easy pace for that runner whatever the Daniels calculator says. I think it’s a moderate pace. Maybe some runners should do it more often than others in this scenario. I don’t know, I was just transcribing what one of the greatest coaches in the world wrote.

The 1.3x5k RP is exactly the fast end on the Jack Daniel's easy pace. Tinman already calls that pace too fast for easy days and moderate. Salazar understands that it's not jogging, but a decent clip but he still wants Rupp and Farah to run that pace on most days rather than jogging 6 min miles or slower because he thinks that wouldn't do anything for them, essentially just burning calories.

Normally the entire Jack Daniel's easy pace is already considered fast, so the fast end could definitely be called moderate, even tho it is still way below MP.

What's missing here is what you rightfully addressed, easy pace would vary by the runner and his muscle fiber physiology. One easy pace might work for a slow-twitcher but would absolutely destroy a fast-twitch guy. I would say that the slow twitch guys can handle faster easy runs (think about Rupp, Farah, all these skinny 10k specialists) whereas Lagat/Coe etc would need slower easy paces.

This was also the reality, as Rupp/Farah did 5:30-5:45 on easy days, Coe 6:00-6:30 and Lagat has lots of easy runs even as slow as 6:45 pace. Symmonds is also way more FT than Rupp/Farah (big, strong guy) and was known to run his easy days very slow, often slower than 7 min/mile.

The Kenyan's are often considered to be quite fast-twitch (strong kicks, or think about Rudisha) so I can imagine the build-up work well for them, but I think for a true slow-twitcher 2x1.3x5k Pace and 5x (or more with doubles) even easier will not do anything.

As a 15:45 5k runner. These numbers work out to 6:30 pace at 1.3x and 6:00 pace at 1.2x.

I could definitely not run 70-80 miles a week at 6:30 pace even with no workouts. I would literally die.

I am planning on using this plan for Jan/Feb and building up to 90 minutes at 6:30 pace and 60 minutes at 6 flat pace every week seems like pretty much the perfect plan for me. I think I’ll move to a 10 day cycle when I start adding in some speed endurance work in Feb.

I REALLY appreciate the person who bumped this and posted the google sheet. And thank you to Canova as well.

One question for folks... any other examples of speed endurance work beyond the 3k/2k/1k/500m workout Canova posted?

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

The 1.3x5k RP is exactly the fast end on the Jack Daniel's easy pace. Tinman already calls that pace too fast for easy days and moderate. Salazar understands that it's not jogging, but a decent clip but he still wants Rupp and Farah to run that pace on most days rather than jogging 6 min miles or slower because he thinks that wouldn't do anything for them, essentially just burning calories.

Normally the entire Jack Daniel's easy pace is already considered fast, so the fast end could definitely be called moderate, even tho it is still way below MP.

What's missing here (...)

What's missing here is that you are misinterpreting the post(s).

This is not about running your easy pace at 1.3x5k

This is about getting two of your weekly runs to that pace, while increasing their duration.

The goal is to build up to this:

"Now you are running faster 2 times per week; A 90 minute run at 1.3 X 5K RP and a 60 minute run at 1.2 X 5K RP."

and then get more specific depending on the distance the athlete will be racing.

No, that's exactly how I understood it. My point was that this pace (1.3x5k) is so easy, that in a week with only VERY easy runs 2x running at 1.3x5k is a very light stimulus.

Take your average 20 min HS kid. 1.3x5k pace for him is 8:12/mi. So Canova would have him run in this fundamental period 5 x very easy at say 8:30/mi to 9:00/mi and then give him the two 1.3x runs building to 90 min at 8:12/mi.

From my experience, 20 min HS kids can easily run 8:12/mi every day if there are no workouts and races in a week. Therefore, they would not get a great stimulus to prepare them for the harder/more specific sessions to come in the following months.

You should not need to build to 1.3x5k pace because that pace is so slow and still in the "easy" range of most people, and also in the "easy" range of the Jack Daniel's calculator, albeit on the fast end of the range, the same that Salazar used with Rupp/Farah/Cain etc.

An exception are fast-twitch runners, for them this build-up would work great as they struggle with a fast easy pace since they don't have many slow-twitch fibers. That might also be the reason why Farah/Rupp kept improving despite all easy runs @5:30-5:45/mi, and Cain stagnated/got injured when Salazar forced 6:30/mi pace on her every single easy run.

Isn’t part of this that as you get faster the difference between 5k race pace and 1.3x 5k race pace gets smaller? That seems like an important thing to remember when we are using a multiplier...

For Cheptegei these numbers are 5:15 pace for 90 minutes and 4:45 pace for 60 minutes respectively.

These seem like perfectly reasonable paces in a base building phase to me. Perhaps even a bit quick?

How are you this consistently the worst? I'd rather deal with a troll than your terrible takes. We get it, you don't think this base schedule posted by Renato Canova is good. You don't have to do it. One post with your grievances was enough. Please don't respond again by writing 8 more paragraphs about how Canova doesn't know what he's talking about.

So do you just convert 5k pace to seconds and multiply by 1.3/1.2? Probably dumb question, so at 17 flat (5:28) approximately I would need to work up to a 90 minute run at 7 flat and a 60min run at 6:33 weekly. I can certainly do that but it’s not easy/no stimulus. It’s basically a 10M MP run each week and a 13M moderate run each week. I typically run my easy around 745-815 depending on the soreness/fatigue of the day.

need training mates wrote:

So do you just convert 5k pace to seconds and multiply by 1.3/1.2? Probably dumb question, so at 17 flat (5:28) approximately I would need to work up to a 90 minute run at 7 flat and a 60min run at 6:33 weekly. I can certainly do that but it’s not easy/no stimulus. It’s basically a 10M MP run each week and a 13M moderate run each week. I typically run my easy around 745-815 depending on the soreness/fatigue of the day.

Yes, exactly that. Not a dumb question at all. Don't forget, there are also 2 or 3 strength sessions and/or hill sprints each week.

Working Stiff wrote:

need training mates wrote:

So do you just convert 5k pace to seconds and multiply by 1.3/1.2? Probably dumb question, so at 17 flat (5:28) approximately I would need to work up to a 90 minute run at 7 flat and a 60min run at 6:33 weekly. I can certainly do that but it’s not easy/no stimulus. It’s basically a 10M MP run each week and a 13M moderate run each week. I typically run my easy around 745-815 depending on the soreness/fatigue of the day.

Yes, exactly that. Not a dumb question at all. Don't forget, there are also 2 or 3 strength sessions and/or hill sprints each week.

What do strength sessions entail in this context?

imagebearer wrote:

What do strength sessions entail in this context?

That's a good question. I don't know that he's ever been super specific about it. He mentions using Hill Sprints as strength training as well as "Circuits" which is pretty vague. He's also talked a little about using light weights for unspecified exercises. Maybe someone else has more detail there?

Working Stiff wrote:

need training mates wrote:

So do you just convert 5k pace to seconds and multiply by 1.3/1.2? Probably dumb question, so at 17 flat (5:28) approximately I would need to work up to a 90 minute run at 7 flat and a 60min run at 6:33 weekly. I can certainly do that but it’s not easy/no stimulus. It’s basically a 10M MP run each week and a 13M moderate run each week. I typically run my easy around 745-815 depending on the soreness/fatigue of the day.

Yes, exactly that. Not a dumb question at all. Don't forget, there are also 2 or 3 strength sessions and/or hill sprints each week.

Not sure if I understand all of this, but you could just use the old training adage 1 min minus current 5k pace = MP, and 1:30-2 minus = everyday pace. For those that struggle with this, current 10K works well too, or earlier in the season.

The key take away is you are running faster aerobic runs other than just a recovery run. Some studies suggest this is the sweet spot for aerobic development, and 1:30-2 hrs a good time zone.

IMO, MP work is neglected outside of Thon training, but if you want to build an aerobic engine quicker, and on lower mileage, this pace is really good place to camp out.

The pace is good enough to keep your stride and cadence in the right place, and transition to faster paces feels easier. You also expand your rib cage and develop endurance in the diaphragm enabling deeper breaths without fatigue.

This is why the mix of the 1 hr run @ around MP, and a longer steady 1.5 is really good training, IMO.

That's good info. Just a note on Canova specifically: His "fundamental tempo" pace is a little slower than Daniel's marathon pace. I'm not taking a stance on whether that method is better or worse than straight marathon pace, but that's Canova's view. It's explained in a lot of detail here:

Working Stiff, you are one great source of knowledge and information! Thank you for sharing this document.