Marathon Training - Week Ending 12/13

Goal: Boston, Sub 2:40

Had a great week and built a ton of confidence for going sub 2:40. I'm just hoping that I'm not going to peak to soon or get burnt out. Things are just clicking really well right now. It's hard not to just go with it. Pablo, I envy your dicipline to take the week off even though you are anxious to start training. Probably a good decision.

M: 10 moderate

T: AM-4easy

PM-11 total, 4x(1600,200) w/ 200m jog rest.

5:30, 32, 5:18, 32, 5:16, 32, 5:16

W: 10mi progression 6:50s to 6:10s

R: AM-4easy

PM-13mi w/ 6-10 in MP (6:00)

F: 10 easy on grass

S: 18mi in 6:30avg w/ 10-16 in MP

S: 10 easy on trails

Total: 90mi

Another all time high for MPW. Other than a sore achillies in the AM, feeling fine though. Threw in some more MP and progression running. MP to get familiar with the pace and progression runs because of some stuff I read about Bob Kennedy's training. He strongly advocates them. Saturday's long run was a real confidence booster. Being able to run MP late in a long run is something I've never been able to pull off. Miles 15 and 16 were actually 5:50 each. Starting Pfitzinger's 18/85 this week so miles will drop and intensity will pick up a little.

Nice workout BB.

Goal Cleveland, 3:15

m 6 w/ 3@ 7:30 m pace tempo workout

t 6 w/6x100m striders

w 6 medium paced

r --oops Missed midweek longrun due to work. (-12)

f 8 w/ light m pace tempo workout, 6x100 striders

s 6 hills/trails

s 14 pouring rain, 33F, hills and trails since I missed the midweek longrun i thought I'd make this a little harder than on the flat. Miserable conditions. I'm pleased that I was unable to find an excuse not to do the run. I did not run fast, but the cold rain and thorough soaking was really exhausting. I didn't use gu or anything (its only 14 after all) but I wonder if the cold and rain didn't suck up some extra calories from my glycogen supply. I felt like my blood sugar was dropping off a cliff.

Total: 46 Midweek longrun miss really takes a bite out of the mileage.

DR?

Goal: White Rock, 2:55

M: Off

Tu: 5.5 total; 4 x 800 alternating between MP and 5k pace, 3.5 wu/cd/rec

W: 6.2 easy

Th: 6.2 easy

F: Off

Sa: 4.5 total; 4 easy plus 0.5 Western Australia carb load prep

Su: 26.3 total; 26.2 race plus 0.1 wu\

Total: 48.7

Race report to follow.

BostonBound wrote:

Pablo, I envy your dicipline to take the week off even though you are anxious to start training. Probably a good decision.

Some people can hammer out strings of weeks with hard mileage and feel fine, I'm not one of them.

I've learned through the years of college training, and my Chicago training that once I start doing regular workouts, it's only a matter of time before my body starts shutting down. I'll be in damn good shape, but it will mean nothing if I have no desire to run. I can build base mileage forever and feel great, but I won't be in my greatest shape. I felt like my training for Chicago was about 2-3 weeks too long, and I felt like I underperformed.

This time around, I'd rather show up to Boston slightly undertrained than slightly overtrained.

For someone aiming for sub 2:40, your Tuesday workout probably wasn't too taxing, but personally, I would be wary about doing a lot of MP miles right now. If you can handle it, more power to you...I'm just saying I could'nt be doing that right now.

OK, light week for me. I started 18/85+ this morning with a 6+ recovery run. Will head out for almost 5 slow during lunch in a little over an hour..

M: 10.23 @ 7:19 AHR 148

T: 5.42 @ 8:18 AHR 133

W: 5.39 @ 8:21 AHR 130 (TM)

R: 7.32 @ 7:20 AHR 148

F: 5.52 @ 8:09 AHR 128 (TM)

S: 11.00 @ 7:39 AHR 145

S: Off

Tot: 44.9

Chicago 2:25

Thanks for getting the thread going Pablo.

Great week Bostonbound; take care of that achilles.

I had a decent recovery week of 64 miles with the following specifics (basically on 5 days - only 3 miles on the travel day).

Monday 4*1,100 in 3:17-3:19 with 3 minutes rest. Felt good and fast.

Saturday ran USATF Team Cross Nationals and got worked. Here's that report:

The course was incredibly rutty which was worse than the hills. Once I started struggling these compounded each other.

5:06 at the mile and not even in the top half. Held my own for 4 10:14/15:45/21:07. At the 4.5 mile on the 3.5 loop course you hit the "bottom" of the course and that's where the wheels fell off 27:04 - 34:30!

Ended 4th on the team.

My feet were beaten up from the terrain and spikes so I took Sunday off. Florida guys are not meant to run with ice and hills.

Goal: Phoenix RnR sub 2:30

5 weeks to go so I figure it would be good to get in on this thread to both keep me focused and to also let me relaxed and not over do it.

Last week:

Mon AM- 8.5 easy

Mon PM- 7 easy

Tues AM- 10 total, with 3 sets of on/off miles averaged 5:05 for on and 5:59 for off, felt good and relaxed

Tues PM- 4 easy

Wed AM- 10.5 moderate pace felt good

Wed PM- 4 easy

Thur AM- 15 at decent pace on trails, felt good

Thur PM- 4.5 easy

Fri AM- 12.5 total with 5x800 uphill in 2:50 with brisk recovery down

Fri PM- 4.5 easy

Sat AM- 9.5 easy

Sun AM- 20 total with last 5 on track in 27:18 cutdown from 5:36 to 5:18 felt good

Total: 110

Probably have 2-3 more weeks like this then 2-3 weeks for the taper. The last few weeks have definitely been a boost to the confidence, just have to make it to the start line and I'll be fine.

Pablo,

I've been trying to think of ways to prevent early burnout or peaking without wasting all the work I've put in. Do you think it might be a good idea to take a week off sometime soon, like Dec 24 to Jan 1st? (that wouldn't be inconvenient), just for a mental and physical break?

I did the Tuesday workout with my club. I'm really just considering Sept-Mid Dec as base training and would rather not do workouts, but just wanted to participate in practice.

I'm doing the MP because, I plan to follow Pfitz and some early long runs involve MP. I haven't been able to run any MP in a run longer than 13 so I wanted to get myself up to that level before starting the program. Saturday I ran more miles at MP than expected because I planned to gradually pick up from 6:40s to MP, but accidentally dropped to 6s really quickly. I was suprised at how easy it was.(note: had a stiff wind at my back the second half on flat course). I would consider this run moderate effort, not close to hard.

I really don't have much idea of what I'm doing for marathon training and could use all the help I can get.

Just for a quick history, I've run 3 marathon so far:

1. Fall 2006: 2:40.x I prepared about 5 months with max of 60mpw and mostly XC workouts. Ran the mile in college and never exceeded 50mpw in my life.

2. Fall 2008: 2:53.x Tried to up the miles in the summer to 70mpw consistently and suffered a ton a setbacks. Didn't do any workouts and hit about 3 runs over 16mi. Terrible cycle, but was really just a boston qualifier

3. Boston 2009: 2:48.x No running from Oct 15 to Jan 1st 2008 due to injury after marathon. Ran 3 days a week (track workout, tempo run, long run) starting from Jan 1st(~40mpw).

4. Trying to follow through with my first complete and proper marathon training cycle for Boston 2010. Sub 2:40 goal stems from 2006 marathon result. I've been trying to increase the miles really really slowly in order to adapt and avoid injury. Successful so far. I'm hoping that the long cycle will compensate for the lack of mileage in my background. I usually get injuried in the buildup because I rush it. Now that I'm up, I'm afraid to drop down again and have to go through another risky buildup. Hence the hesitation to back off.

Anyways, sorry for the long post. Don't blame you if you didn't make it this far.

Race: Boston

Time: 3:37:00-2:59:59

Another buildup in mileage week. Not even thinking about workouts until after the new year.

Mon- 7

Tue- 9 with 7x20-25 sec strides

Wed- 8

Thur- 10

Fri- 8 and 5 with 6x25 sec strides in Lexington

Sat- 14 in Lexington

Sun- 9 in Lexington

Total: 70

The team I coach finished 12 at Nationals. We were pleased. My 1, 3 and 7 guys had huge races, and 2, 4, 5, 6 guys ran solid... definitely as well as they could have. My 3 guy PRd for 4M, 5M and 10K, my 7 guy ran 40 seconds faster through 5M then he has run an all out 5M all season (roads included) and my 1 guy just knocked the cover off the ball (finished 39th). Was really proud of everyone.

2009 White Rock Marathon

Time: Approximately 2:58:15.

Why approximately? BECAUSE I'M NOT ON THE FRICKIN' RESULTS. My wife got split updates on me through Mile 24 (the last checkpoint), so I know my chip/tag was working. My guess is the finish line mat missed it, which I guess is probably the one to miss because they'll have pictures of me. In any event, I've emailed the race director, the results guy, and the timing company to fix this. I'm going to throw a (bigger) fit if they don't update marathonguide.com -- I work with a number of runners, and they check when you say you ran a particular time and will think I'm a liar if I don't show up on marathonguide.

As for the race, I didn't keep my splits. Here's a general overview of the high points.

Weather: Nice. High 40s to high 50s during the race, foggy to start, cloudy at the end. Wind was manageable.

Mile 1: Lots o' people. Only about 20% of them are doing the marathon. That was a lot of effort for a 6:30ish mile.

Mile 4: Hmm, I've settled down nicely into 6:40 pace. The first 6 are net uphill about 180 feet, so I'm maybe even a little fast. Still crowded. Let me look around to see if I can find a marathoner to tag along with. Look left, look right. Hey, what's that cone doing right in front of me?!? I'll have to straddle it! Oh no, I can't keep my balance! BARREL ROLL! Some nice kids pick me up without breaking stride. Really nice guys. Miraculously, I'm OK -- small scratch on my chin and a sore left hand. Still run right at 6:40 over the hilly mile.

10k: 40:10 split. Definitely too fast on the uphill first part. Crap. Try to back off a bit. Also time for a gel. Talk to a couple of guys from Shreveport who say that they're only goal is sub-3:00.

Mile 9: 59:48. Slowed down a bit to low 6:40s on a downhill/flat section. Hopefully this will save me for the last miles. This is also where the 9.5 loop around the lake starts -- it will be good to see how fast I can do it. My record is 56 minutes, which won't happen. But my next best time is 66 minutes, which might. One of the Shreveport guys peels off to potty. Don't see him again. The other one speeds up a bit.

Mile 10: 1:06:24. Right at 6:40 pace, but not in a good way. Too fast uphill, too slow on the downhill/flat. Starting to feel the effort. Lost contact with the guy from Shreveport, and the low-to-mid 2:50s guys are pulling by me.

Halfway: 1:26:08. Cool, that's my second fastest HM ever! Wait, I've got to run another 13.1. That's not so cool. Backside of the lake means the wind is picking up. This is kind of early to feel this crappy.

Mile 14: OK, I feel a little better after a gel. Still in the low 6:40s.

Mile 15: No I don't! The math starts. If I run 8:00 miles from here on out, what will I finish at? 3:09 or so? Crap.

Mile 19: Coming out from the lake. Did the loop in around 64 minutes. New second-best! Still aound 6:50 pace. But here come the hills. Crap, crap, and double crap.

Mile 21.5: They're called the Dolly Partons -- about 150 feet climb in 1.5 miles. It's kind of misleading. There's no real hill, just a steady uphill for a mile or so. I manage Mile 20 (all uphill) in 7:19, right what I was shooting for. The math tells me that at Mile 22, I'll be to the point where 8 minute miles will get me sub-3:00. Which is good, because after 21+ miles and a climb, my legs are shot. Guys I'm running with are waddling. I suspect I am too. Pretty much give up on sub-2:55 at this point.

Mile 22: You know, I haven't had any GI issues. That UltraFuel carb load really did the trick.

Mile 22.5: Jinx! Get the rumbling right after the mile mark. Pressure builds quickly. Learning from my experience at Chicago, I stop at the first set of Port-a-potties I see. Bathroom stop takes 48 seconds, so I'm back to the point where 8:00 miles won't get me sub-3:00. It's bloody, but I feel OK. Back on the road. Only one guy has passed me.

Mile 23: More than one guy passes me. Dudes that picked me up at Mile 4 fly by. I don't mind so much.

Mile 24: 2:43:05. 8:00 miles will get me 2:59! Oh wait, it's 26.2, not 26. Which at 8:00 will be... 3:00:40. Crap.

Mile 24.1: I pass the guy from Shreveport. He's walking. I pat him on the shoulder as I pass and tell him that he'll break 3:00 if he just keeps running. According to the results he finished in 3:00:40 or so, his friend in 3:01.

Mile 25: 2:40 low. 8:00 pace will put me under 3:00 for sure at this point, so I relax a bit. Really hot relay girl in a red bodysuit flies by. Nice. Only problem is that she's going too fast to enjoy the view for long.

Finish: 2:58:15 on my watch. I know I'm around 40th place (exactly 40 it appears ONCE THEY GET THE F'ING RESULTS RIGHT), so I hit my top 50 goal. I get a nice Top 100 finisher Legs are dead but OK for the first 5 minutes. Dead and not OK after that. Stupid 2:00+ half marathoners are clogging up the lines for food and beer, so I skip that. Parents parked a mile away. That wlak sucked.

Takeaways: GI issues again late in the race, so next time I'll do the carb load more than a day in advance in case that's it. I lost close to a minute at the bathroom stop. Going out in 1:26 low was a mistake, especially because the way it was paced (fast on the uphill, slow on the downhill) it was a hard 1:26 low. I suspect that if I had been closer to 1:27:30, especially properly paced, I could have saved myself a minute or two in the second half. Figure 1:30, plus the bathroom stop, and I'm looking at 2:55 high. Makes sense.

Cutter,

XC nationals is always tough. The guys I know that ran this year didn't run great times. It's amazing how competative it is. Doesn't help when you're not used to the cold. I always wonder why it's so late in the season. Most of our guys peak several weeks earlier and just try to hold on until Nationals.

2TM,

Nice coaching job. Sounds like everyone peaked at the right time.

DR,

Great time regardless, but even better considering the problems. I couldn't imagine reaching the "math" phase at 15. Usually that hits around 21 for me. Gutsy race to fight though.

BostonBound - You have more marathon experience than I do, it is totally up to you on how you structure your buildup. That being said, you won't lose much fitness if you take one week off. If you really feel bad about not running, you can cross train and retain most (if not all) of your fitness. What I've done is incorporate "down weeks" in training where every 4th week, my mileage will be about ~80% of what it was in the 3 weeks leading up to it. I'll also take a day completely off. Through trial and error, I just seem to know what my body can handle.

2TM - I think you meant your goal is 2:37-2:59. How is the foot doing, any better?

Denver - Great report! Glad to see you didn't endure any damage (physical or mental) after the spill at mile 4. You know your pace is falling when you start calculating how slow you can go and still be under "x" time. I do it in nearly all of my races. Enjoy some time off, you've been training a while.

sun 2 easy + football

mon 10 easy

tue 7 easy

wed 10 easy

thu 10 easy

fri 11 easy

sat 10 easy

60 miles.

Nice job Denver!

Yeah, meant 2:37:00-2:39:59.

Foot feels better, though I still feel it every day. Cringe at the thought of wearing flats right now, but not nearly as bad as it was.

Looking forward to 3 more weeks of building to peak mileage before starting some workouts...

Denver - Great report! Glad to see you didn't endure any damage (physical or mental) after the spill at mile 4. You know your pace is falling when you start calculating how slow you can go and still be under "x" time. I do it in nearly all of my races. Enjoy some time off, you've been training a while.

Yeah, it's two weeks of no running period, then two weeks of jogging if I feel like it. Then after that, I'm not sure. The wife is pregnant with twins due in April/May (hard to tell for sure with multiples), so that rules out any spring races, even shorter ones like the Bolder Boulder. I may just try to run maybe 25 or so miles a week easy to stay in shape over the winter. Maybe take the weekends off and teach my kid how to ski.

Nice job DR! Especially with the GI issues.

That math calculation stuff backfired on me in Chicago. I was having some achilles problems after the half so I was figuring out what I had to run to still get sub-3. Unfortunately, I should have been calculating what I needed to run to get sub 2:55 since I had gas in the tank on Michigan and especially coming down Columbus.... I think I let up a little in those late miles when I probably could have pushed it a little...

My 2nd recovery run of the day at lunch today was the hilliest route I've every run. Steep inclines/declines of 150-200ft elevations gains. Not exactly what I want for recovery runs.... Time to find a different route from work (I didn't think it was going to be that bad....)

Denver Runner wrote:

2009 White Rock Marathon

Time: Approximately 2:58:15.

Why approximately? BECAUSE I'M NOT ON THE FRICKIN' RESULTS. My wife got split updates on me through Mile 24 (the last checkpoint), so I know my chip/tag was working. My guess is the finish line mat missed it, which I guess is probably the one to miss because they'll have pictures of me. In any event, I've emailed the race director, the results guy, and the timing company to fix this. I'm going to throw a (bigger) fit if they don't update marathonguide.com -- I work with a number of runners, and they check when you say you ran a particular time and will think I'm a liar if I don't show up on marathonguide.

Hate to break it to you but the same thing happened to me at San Antonio last year and marathonguide still doesn't list me. The RD got it fixed within a few days and I got my prize money.

The funny thing is I'm only listed on the active.com results and I'm not on the main site any more either.

To make things worse, I was all by myself and the camera guys were focused on the half marathon shoot, so they missed me at the finish.

Great race though!

2:52

Random marathon this weekend

M: 5m- Start of the taper. Since I am doing a crash course in trying to run this race, I was just trying to rest my legs and more importantly my mind.

T: 7m w/ 3x1200, 6x200. My first 1200 was very slow and I felt way off- perhaps due to the humid and the much warmer than normal weather. Next 2 1200m's were about where they were supposed to be, I guess.

W: 9m Big hilly run. Got a leg deep tissue massage in the PM. Man I needed it.

R: 6m- very late- just putting in some miles.

F: No desire- 4m was all I could do.

S: 12m- after talking it through with someone I highly respect, I decided to jump in a 5k for fun about 2 hours before I left for my run. While the hills and the heat didn't work in my favor, I actually ran the 5k 30 seconds faster than I did 2 years ago. My 5k time doesn't grade out per macmillian to the marathon time I really crave, so maybe I need to rethink my goal time.

S: 5m- just trying to not overdo it. Left knee felt sore.

WM: 48

Not sure when I'm going to start marathon training again, but I'm still following this thread, and I'll be back.(Nice job everyone from the last few weeks by the way.)

I've come to respect the training and thoughts of everyone on this thread, so that is why I'm asking my question here.

I ran a 4 minute PR off of 12wk/70mpw marathon training at Philly and was very happy. Not quite three weeks later (and with my last speedwork session of 3x1 mile about a month ago) I ran an indoor 3k and nominally (ie Vdot, MacMillan, Wava etc. all indicated) I had a better race.

Any thoughts on what this would suggest I change/add to my training? Do I have more "natural speed" than I give myself credit for?

I'm thinking of using Pfitz again, but altering it for 5k-10mi distances for the spring and then targeting a fast fall marathon.

Thanks everyone.