RITZ 12:56 proof that lydiard style marathon base training is key

Oh I see, so a single recent run of Geb's = a complete view of his 5000m training from 10 years ago?

12345 wrote:

Skuj wrote:

We should take a close look at the training of Aouita, Moorcroft, Kennedy, El G, Bekele, and a dozen of today's sub 13 runners, and then revisit the "proof" that is referred to in the title of this thread.

From Haile G's twitter:

"Did a 3 hour run on altitude, about 3000m. Here I can not run on roads or paths, but just through wild nature"

yup, lots of speedwork there.

Nurtured wrote:

Nick Symonds mentioned he was tired in the final of the 800 and I can bet he doesn't run over 50 mpw.

False, he has said he runs 70.

Speed what the heck are you talking about! Speed what! Geez where the hell do people on here come from. Ok you keep concentrating on your speed.

12345 wrote:

Skuj wrote:

We should take a close look at the training of Aouita, Moorcroft, Kennedy, El G, Bekele, and a dozen of today's sub 13 runners, and then revisit the "proof" that is referred to in the title of this thread.

From Haile G's twitter:

"Did a 3 hour run on altitude, about 3000m. Here I can not run on roads or paths, but just through wild nature"

yup, lots of speedwork there.

BS. When Geb was no 1 on the track, he was known for doing brutal track sessions.

The reason why Ritz had this breakthrough is mostly because he has managed to stay injury free.

When Artur Lydiard talked about "marathon conditioning" he didn´t mean "training for the marathon". It was just one of the phases in Lydiard´s periodization.

Ask Renato Canova about Lydiard's training philosophy. Canova states that Lydiard's model was great for runners in the 1960's but that in today's modern race-day world of having to peak for World XC, Indoor and Outdoor Track, and Road Races, Marathons, etc, at all times of the year, the Lydiard model can no longer be applied.

People are missing the point. No one said he followed a Lydiard Schedule which even lydiard himself said at one point would be hard to use in the modern track circuit coming to an ultimate peak only once or twice a year. Lydiard Advocated Maxing ones Aerobic capacity through Marathon conditioning. I think the OP is saying that regardless of the schedules and everything else lydiard's main message was to be great you need to run high miles at your near best aerobic effort. This is what Ritz has done in the last few years while training for the Marathon and all his conditioning has allowed him to kick ass in Salazars workouts.

The U.S. needs to get back to running the big miles we used to in the 70's and FORGET all that FRANK HORWILL shit.... His 5 tier pace bull shit set the Western track world back 30 years almost.... Yea its great for in season stuff but not all year round you cannot replace the hard long miles you put in year after year....

Miles make champions!

I've always been up the opinion that athletes who want longevity in their professional careers and don't want to sacrifice the marathon or the track should specifically focus on one fall marathon per year and use the entire summer and much of the fall base building. Ditch the spring marathon, since the legs have "only so many marathons" in them anyhow, and refine the speed to run well in track (and perhaps cross). Of course, Dathan has shown that you can apply this by building an enormous base into a spring marathon, recover briefly, and then refine for the track. Two or more marathon efforts per year will shorten marathon careers or otherwise "dull" efforts, some notable exceptions notwithstanding.

Anyhow, I have no doubt that it was years of CONSISTENT marathon base building and perhaps the altitude tent that enabled Ritz to run as fast as he did.

I take it that you have never actually tried Frank Horwill's training.

if this lydiard model is correct,

then there must be a HOARD of Japanese runners just about to break 13.

How come Ritz left Hudson if what he was giving him would prove so effective?

Name me one other kenyan or ANYONE that has gone from the marathon, a 2:10 mind you, to a sub 13. NOBODY.

This is VERY suspicious

What woul you guys call this? This was his training in the early months of 2007

* S. 1:40min. w last 20min. fast up Left Hand Canyon

* M. 50min. easy 50min. easy

* T. 20min. w.u. 3 x 15min. progressions/60sec jog/float 2-3-4 mmol ( 10 below-5 below-Threshold) 10min. w.d. 35min. easy

* W. 1:30min. easy-mod.

* T. 50min. easy+ 2-3 s.h.( first time doing short hills since injury) 50min. easy

* F. 20min. w.u. Fartlek Harper lake 5 x 6min. Threshold to current 10km 3:00 rec. 20min. w.d. 40min. easy

* S. off

To me it seems to have a lot of lydiard in it but more from a modern perspective, also note this program says nothing. It might have been his base that allowed him to go fast now or it might have been why he was not performing to standard.

Tri-guy wrote:

To me it seems to have a lot of lydiard in it but more from a modern perspective,

The times that I have heard this.....over and over again.....ANYTHING can be Lydiard I suppose. I's ALL Lydiard.

When does the Lydiard model stop being the Lydiard model, folks?

And why do these threads happen every month: Lydiardites trying to put square pegs into round holes. No other group seems so bent on "spreading the word".

The title of this thread is abject falsehood.

The essence of Lydiard training was nothing mpore complicated than training track guys for the marathon and also having marathoners train like track guys.

Ritzenhein has spent something like three years training for the marathon. It's exactly the sort of thing Arthur would have prescribed for him and he would attribute the big breakthrough to that marathon training.

When someone does the sort of volume work that a marathon runner would likely do and then has a major breakthrough anyone who understands the principles of Lydiard training is going to say that the breakthrough validates Lydiard's principles regardlesss of whether or not the athlete making the breakthrough attributes it to reading Lydiard, hearing Lydiard, or following a schedule that looks to you like Lydiard.

scones wrote:

Spped is what brought him the record. For years he did marathon training and had no breakout performances. So when he adds speed to the equation, that demonstrates that speed is key, not that the stuff that he had been doing all along is key.

Let's not forget that Lydiard's method doesn't omit speed. His method in fact includes hill sessions and track intervals in addition to the long runs.

While I think Lydiard is the man, Ritz breaking the AR in the 5,000 is not evidence of anything other than Ritz had the ability to break the 5,000 and did. A boatload of other national-class runners could employ the same training methods as Ritz did and not break 13:00.

But Lydiard is the man...that's for sure.

Usain Bolt it´s Lydiard indeed. Don´t you see. Lydiard training it´s speed training also. If you train speed it´s Lydiard training despite you may not know. Besides Lydiard did estimate that someone like Bold will appear to break WRs

Resume: If Lydiard didn’t exist distance run wouldn’t exist. From Spiridon Louis to Wanjiro or Gebrelassie from Hannes Kohlemainen to Kenenisa Belele it´s all due to Lydiard.

Everyone that runs everyone that trains everyone that does the marathon everyone that is successful it´s Lydiard. Lydiard did speak about success on several occasions. It´s all attributed to Lydiard and we are their entire beloved disciples.

I think there is a big misconception about Lydiard here.

Lydiard training is not a training plan. It's a training principle and common sense. Just about everyone's training plan has the Lydiard principle in it. That does not mean that it is to Lydiard's credit. It is just the name for the common element in most of our training. We all do it, Lydiard happened to be the one to point it out. Although, I'm sure he is the reason most of us use periodization.

The lydiard principle is all about periodization and optimization.

Periods -

1)Run long, steady, fast runs as often as you can while not wearing yourself down and while not ignoring your other parts of fitness (top end speed, mid distance speed, etc...). In other words, once or twice every 2 weeks, you should do some top end speed work or mid distance speed work.

2)Faster work (over and under goal pace) as often as you can while not wearing yourself down or ignoring the other parts of your fitness

3) Race specific pace work as often as you can without wearing yourself down and without ignoring the other parts of fitness

Lydiard said that you are free to use whatever type of intervals and speedwork that you want.

This is all pretty similar to Renato Canova's training if anyone has read that thread from earlier this year.

Lydiard training is only effective over extremely hilly terrain and at altitude.

Coaching isn't about "making a cake." You hire your coach because he can put the icing on it, something Hudson never did. Hudson got Ritz fit, but NEVER got him ready to run fast. Hudson says he is not surprised that Ritz ran that fast, yet Hudson never put him in the competitive situation to do it. His 12:56 tells me that Ritz was severely mismanaged, and he severely underperformed at Beijing. After his 8:11, a new road should have been taken. My point is, what was Hudson waiting for?

I knew i did some misconception.

Lydiard it's training principle and common sense.

The Lydiard is all about periodization and optimization.

Lydiard training it´s Usain Bolt and T. Gay also but B. Franklin training as well. When i go out and i try one step forward i can attribute my step run to Lydiard.

sunarm wrote:

Coaching isn't about "making a cake." You hire your coach because he can put the icing on it, something Hudson never did. Hudson got Ritz fit, but NEVER got him ready to run fast. Hudson says he is not surprised that Ritz ran that fast, yet Hudson never put him in the competitive situation to do it. His 12:56 tells me that Ritz was severely mismanaged, and he severely underperformed at Beijing. After his 8:11, a new road should have been taken. My point is, what was Hudson waiting for?

I agree with this, and with Flagpole a couple posts before. I disagree with all the posters who claim that Ritz's sub-13 is some freak of nature. He ran 13:44 at age 18. He ran 13:27 at age 19. He ran 13:22 at age 20, AFTER time off because of a stress fracture. According to Wetmore, he was planning to run a 13:15 just before the 2004 Olympic Trials, at age 21. His 8:11 at age 24 was a sign that he should have concentrated on 3K/5K, but instead he went marathon; which did not allow him the opportunity to race fast on the track. This 5K AR at age 26 is maybe overdue, but certainly not unexpected.