There was a kid on my team who only ran 15 mpw and still pulled a 9:30 2 mile. He went 15:xx at NSIC that year in the 5K, too. He did more drugs than anyone I ever knew. One race he came straight from a party high and drunk with no sleep, and ran a 15:30 3 mile. I guess what I am trying to show is that some people are just freaks and can survive on really low mileage.
PS: THIS IS ALL TRUE, I KID YOU NOT
Hearing that kind of stuff just pisses me off. I'm working way harder even though I get injured all the time, and still suck and never improve. Oh well.
I know, the kid was a machine. He would just go into a zone during races. Too bad he stopped running after high school.
(This is in California so he didn't even make State finals with that time)
its just a sport. i refuse to get upset about the US not being able to compete with the kenyans etc. when their standard of living eclipses ours, then i will worry.
now, on with the predictable responses to this logic...
scott d also read:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=303884&thread=303884
My view.
MY MY the old low mile high intensity freaks versus the high mileage freaks.Runners respond to both systems as pointed out Coe versus Ryan. etc etc.They both work if properly executed by a coach that knows the haps.You cant teach desire as some coach said. So if they have it they will use it. In turn they are willing to give up some of the pranks of youth.Not necesarily all but some.It comes down to the individual. Just like all the asshole individuals including myself. Malmo your analysis of webb may be correct, and i am leaning towards your opinion, i just hope you are wrong about this one.Lets get out and run
its almost sunday on the west coast.
je wrote:
Malmo your analysis of webb may be correct, and i am leaning towards your opinion, i just hope you are wrong about this one.Lets get out and run
its almost sunday on the west coast.
I hope I'm wrong on this one too.
So Ryun and Lindgren Burned out? What a shame.
Ponder this thought though, is it better to run a 3:51 WR like Ryun and a 13:28 5000 like Lingren and burn out before age 25
or
Never "burnout" and make steady progress all through your 20s with PRs every year and eventually get down to 4:05 and 14:10 ?
SeniorElGimpo wrote:
I know, many high schoolers do high mileage training, but there is no real need. I understand that they are a very good high school program, but we don't need kids peaking at 20-22, we need them peaking at late 20's, early 30's. What does it matter if the kid is fast in high school if he will still get smoked by the kenyans. If we slowly build up mileage each year and peak them when they are older, we will have a much better chance against the africans. One of the problems I have witnessed is the low rate of kids running after high school. With such high mileage being thrown on kids, running doesn't seem fun and many just quit. Who knows if one of the kids who quit could have been the one who would have been the next great American runner. This just re-enforces my stance that high school running should not be looked at like a running curcuit, and instead as a stepping stone to greater things.
You don't get it. You need background to compete at your highest level. Capilaries, mitochondria, myoglobin, etc.
Why could Haile G. run 27:30 for 10k at age 19? Because by that time he had run tens of thousands of miles. How could James Kwalia run 12:55 for 5000m as a junior? Because he ran tens of thousands of miles.
Kids have fun because they improve. Listen to greenliner. His kids went to York, ran a whole lot, improved and ran well. And you could say, "Well, where are they now?" First, everyone is not so talented to make it to higher levels and second if you lose the desire to compete (for whatever reason) you can't coach it.
Name your examples of successful athletes of your approach and for every one I will put out a slew of guys who ran a ton of miles in their youth, at relatively low intensities, and are more accomplished.
People say, "Well, Bob Kennedy didn't run that much in HS." True, but how long did it take him to run sub13 and 7:30? Until he was 26. That puts him 6 or more years behind comparable competitors and gives him 6 or more years less in his career.
People say, "Well, the Kenyans run fast but they have huge burnout rates." True, but you must think why is it they burnout/stop racing? On one hand who is coaching them? If they have a good, intelligent, long-term development coach like Renato Canova, they can have very long careers. But often times they are at various camps where they get the shit beat out of them and whoever runs well gets the ticket. And even individual managers can do that. They put them through insane workouts and overrace them and then they're done. And even then, running to many Kenyans is a way to secure financial stability. So they run, make some money and buy a goat farm, or go to the US road circuit to clean up for a while and then go back. Daniel Komen is an example of both. Kim McDonald beat the shit out of that guy and he ran superhuman times -- FOR 3 YEARS. And then his career was over. He was burned out and he had earned the money he wanted so that he didn't need to run anymore.
Name your low mileage kids. Like Mike Stember (this is not personal to Mike, I'm just using his career as an example)? The man never trained at high volume and was always doing intervals. Like Mike Grannville?
je wrote:
MY MY the old low mile high intensity freaks versus the high mileage freaks.Runners respond to both systems as pointed out Coe versus Ryan.
Okay, I'm ready for the attack....
Coe ran as high as the 90 mile range in his base preparation
"I think that's a bunch of shit. If an 8 year old in African can run 70 mpw barefoot, an American high schooler can, too."
You're wrong. I have always been athletic (played hockey until 9th grade). I started track as a frosh and that summer ran 50 MPW ("low mileage" to you guys) and got a femoral stress fracture. I am a senior now and I can still barely do 40 MPW without getting shin splints. Some people just can't do it.
Homo wrote:
"I think that's a bunch of shit. If an 8 year old in African can run 70 mpw barefoot, an American high schooler can, too."
You're wrong. I have always been athletic (played hockey until 9th grade). I started track as a frosh and that summer ran 50 MPW ("low mileage" to you guys) and got a femoral stress fracture. I am a senior now and I can still barely do 40 MPW without getting shin splints. Some people just can't do it.
I used to think so too. The truth is you probably can do it. You just need to back off the intensity. People try to maintain their intensity when they up their mileage and this is asking for injury. It happened to me EVERY time I tried to up my mileage until the most recent try. I relaxed my runs. My legs got used to the volume. I was then able to add in workouts. My times dropped like rocks. When you slow down you don't think you're getting anything out of it, but you most definitely are. (My low mileage intensity was about 6:00 mile training pace. This was when I was running less than 40 per week. My high mileage intensity started at 6:40-6:45 and is now around 6:30-6:35. This is when I am running 100-110 a week.)
malmo wrote:
je wrote:Malmo your analysis of webb may be correct, and i am leaning towards your opinion, i just hope you are wrong about this one.Lets get out and run
its almost sunday on the west coast.
I hope I'm wrong on this one too.
My money is on the kid being fine. He seems to be doing the right things now. He has talent and desire, he will figure out the rest if he keeps at it.
50 mpw was probably too high to start as a 14 year old.
I started at 25mpw and ended my HS days at 80.
hey ya, before you go talking about Ari Lambie suffering in x-c, get the facts straight.
she was kicking Katy trotter's butt all season, she got hurt at the end of October and didn't run at all for the last 2 1/2 weeks leading up to nationals. that is the only reason that Katy even saw her and then beat her by a whopping 2 sec., if Lambie is healthy in that race she would have finished anywhere from 3 - 7.
and don't forget, Ari dusted Katy's butt in HS at Footlocker regionals and would have done the same at the finals if she wasn't sick.
and Malmo, what happened to all those high mileage guys you ran with or against in hs? like Otto M., Dave Sandridge, Wayne Morris, Wheeler etc. ?
what happened to American distance running since they stopped running high mileage?
Look at Ritz..... he had been running since he was in 4th grade, yet look what happened to him in college. He has had one healthy year, and the rest of the time he has been injured. Look at that one guy from Camarillo High in the late 80's, he was running super fast times then burned out in college. Sure high mileage will get you faster, but it is a very high risk/high reward training scheme.
no one is saying "don't do high mileage" just build up to it, don't do it too extremes at a young age.
hey no wrote:
no one is saying "don't do high mileage" just build up to it, don't do it too extremes at a young age.
BINGO!!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!!
I think high mileage is great, just don't throw it on high schoolers who's bodies aren't ready for that type of stress.
a couple of points:
a.) of course you need to build up to it. i don't think anyone here is talking about taking your HS freshman and running them at 100mi weeks. But, if you plan, there is no reason why that athlete can't leave HS with 8-10,000 miles run, running 3000+mi/yr and with the ability to train 80mpw consistently.
b.) kids can handle the volume -- they cannot handle the intensity. if you keep intensity at no more than 15%, that is no more than 15% of their volume is at lactate threshold (MPace) or better, they will be much much more healthy.
c.) Ritzenhein is at Colorado. If things at CU are close to what they were in Running With the Buffaloes, then it's no wonder that he went down. Those guys (in the book) were hammering almost EVERY DAY. You can't do that and expect to remain injury free.
d.) you need to remember that our East African counterparts are running huge volumes at low intensities in adolesence. Haile was running 70 miles per week barefoot at age 8 and then coming home to plow fields and harvest wheat and walk for 3 hours to collect water. Renato can tell you about his athletes that have been running the same volume (or more) since the could first run.
So, the two big points out of this rant are:
1.) You can (and must for long term development) have high schoolers running a sizable volume.
2.) In order to do so you need to regulate three factors:
a.) set out a four year plan for them. Start at 25 or 30mpw and make a bump every winter and every summer. Plan on them running 2800-3200 miles their last year in school.
b.) keep the intensity low. This kills kids especially in track season. For anyone, no more than 20% and for HS kids with little background, 15% is a safer number.
c.) stay on soft surfaces as much as possible.