This Bodybuilder Says That Aerobic Excercise Is (GASP!) HARMFUL!!! Rebut Him, Letsrun!

How many animals can run faster than Bolt over 100m? Loads. Even great big fat grizzly bears and elephants would completely blitz him over 100m.

How many animals could beat Geb over a marathon? Not very many. Maybe a few types of dear, wolves, and that's all I can think of.

Clearly there is something going on in humans regarding their their potential for endurance exercise compared with other land-based animals.

even against deers and wolves my money is on geb. maybe a well-trained horse could take him, but it would be close.

I think Geb would win because he would be vastly superior at following the tangents.

Fish swim thousands of miles...:)

I think the problem is that animals don't run to see how far they can go. Why would they? The only animal that we have at least "trained" to run is a horse and they can pretty much outrace you at any distance.

Early man was a scavenger....really no reason to actually run long distances. Travel long distances? Yes...but early man didn't just start jogging along one day for shits and giggles. We can swim...but we really didn't evolve to be swimmers. We evolved to be very adaptive and to use our brains....well most of us..;)

Alan

Really? It's actually a pretty good races between man and horse. They do a race in wales every year and it goes both ways. If the race were longer, say 40 miles, no way a horse would win. Read "Why we Run" by Berndt Heinrich and it shows some different races between men and beasts. In many cases trained humans would win, but the distance has to be long. Trained horses "only" run 2:2X marathons.

Runningart2004 wrote:

Fish swim thousands of miles...:)

I think the problem is that animals don't run to see how far they can go. Why would they? The only animal that we have at least "trained" to run is a horse and they can pretty much outrace you at any distance.

Early man was a scavenger....really no reason to actually run long distances. Travel long distances? Yes...but early man didn't just start jogging along one day for shits and giggles. We can swim...but we really didn't evolve to be swimmers. We evolved to be very adaptive and to use our brains....well most of us..;)

Alan

I played sports in high school (soccer, tennis, etc.) and was pretty active in college (intramural teams, etc.), but not a scholarship athelete. After college, I got a desk job at a company with a pretty cool corporate gym. I worked out a couple times a week and played on various teams that were organized by my company. Then, a guy in my office said he was going to try to qualify for the Boston Marathon. I thought that was pretty cool and started training with him. What happened after that is a cautionary tale for letsrun-ers.

My first marathon, I ran a 3:17. I was in great shape and headed for a 3:10 at the half, but bonked hard. I started learning more about training and got lots of good tips from lets run. Next time out, I ran a 3:08. Nailed my BQ! In my second year of serious training, I started to neglect the gym and run a ton. That is when it all went wrong.

First came the foot, ankle and knee pain. Came on almost simulataneously and constant. It was like my legs forgot where the ground was and I would stomp the ground as I ran, causing more and more pain from the impact. Then, totally unrelated to the pain, I noticed I couldn't sprint anymore. I could do 800s at 2:40-50, but couldn't run 200 meters any faster than 42 seconds. But, I was so caught up in the marathon thing that I just decided to up my mileage to try to break out of my funk.

I went up to 80-90 mpw, with 3-4 doubles a week. My next marathon was a 2:57. But the cost was high. My joints became so tight that I was frequently unable to stand after sitting for more than an hour at work. I would just kind of waddle like a duck around for a good 20-30 feet until my legs stretched out (people in the office would howl laughing at me when this happened). I also starting getting so hungry after lunch that I would go home and eat an entire pint of ice cream before dinner. On days with doubles, I would eat an entire pack of double stuff oreos for a post run snack. I tried to fight back by running more. But I just felt terrible. I was getting fat, losing my hair, lost all interest in women and then came the wakeup call. I went to the doctor and was diagnosed with hamstring cancer and heart attacks. Fortunately they were both early stage and easily treated. I tried to stop running, but was addicted. I ended up quitting my job and hanging out at the local track offering BJs to people if they would do mile repeats with me. Fortunately, that is how I met Lance, my personal trainer.

Lance tested my muscle mass and found that I had converted almost 40% of my lean muscle to body fat by running consistent 80-90 mile weeks. For only $1,200, I got a series of 20 one hour personal training sessions where Lance would help me count to 12 and write my reps down on a piece of paper attached to a clip board. I have now been with Lance for 3 years and after another $13,200 in personal training sessions, I have lost all my body fat and have gained so much muscle mass that my skin has stretch marks. The best part about being in this kind of shape is that I now attract the really slutty girls at clubs. The ones that will have sex in the bathroom, even if the door doesn't lock. Now, instead of running outside on trails and racing marathons, I spend my free time at the gym, moving my arms and legs back and forth while lifting various amounts of weight. There is a big mirror. I like to look at myself when I make faces straining to do more reps.

So, take heed letsrun-ers. You may feel great running for a year or two, but watch out. Running is very dangerous.

Actually hunters in Africa have ran to hunt, especially with the aid of dogs, the dog can track via scent and help in flushing the animal. Eventually after persued for hours the animal overheated, is exhausted and literally just stops, it can't move anymore. The hunter finishes the animal off.

A friend of mine from the Sudan told me story once, where his father did that hunting a giraffe with a dog. It was totally believable especially because I had heard about it being done like that before.

Modern man is one of the best, if the best, long distance runners on the planet. We little body, lots of sweat glands, well developed leg muscles that can carry us for a long time, and unlikeour furry companions we don't overheat so badly. In hot conditions we can chase down damn near anything if we can track it and just hustle along slowly, it runs outta gas or overheats must faster than we do.

Bottom line, humans have used long distance running for hunting. That doesn't mean running is the ultimate fitness tool though, it just means it has had some uses for some.

I also have to say that as much I love running, pure long distance running training is definitely not the ideal for "general fitness", whatever general fitness truly is.

However, running, including easy distance running, can be a part of a comprehensive training program that includes strength training, anaerobic conditioning and general athletic activity. Running, in various forms, is an integral part of a boxer's training for example, but is not the whole of it.

People shouldn't be so defensive about it. Running is not some "ultimate" exercise. Its a form of exercise like any other, and it has some tremendous strengths and weaknesses, thats why you cover those weaknesses with other forms of conditioning, if fitness is your goal.

Homo erectus was a hunter/gatherer, not a scavenger. Homo erectus mastered elementary tool making, lived collectively with others and cared for weaker members of the group (early socialism). There is evidence that homo erectus hunted big game, more than likely through planned, collective hunts. This would require endurance running to track the animal down, maneuver the animal towards an attack, and continue the tracking and attacking as the injured animal tried to flee.

The idea that early man couldn't run like this because he would end up depleated and vulnerable to attack assumes that early man was dumb. Homo erectus was proficient at tool making and certainly would know how to hide from other animals in order to rest. And there are plenty of roots and other ready to eat plants that could replenish a depleted homo erectus.

I come to letsrun to find race results and I have avoided the message board primarily becuase I have formal education in physiology and most of the things I read on here are either completely wrong or partly wrong.

I have PhD in physiology, broadly trained but specialize in cardiovascular physiology. I have an interest in many areas of physiology, molecular biology, and exercise physiology. The reason I mention this is that it is to suggest that I do have a solid base of knowledge with which to make this assessment.

Alan, you do not know as much as you think you know. I have read many of your posts on this thread and others and I find, in this post in particular, you are providing half-truths and speculation. Understand the limits of your knowledge. This last post in particular is a perfect example.

How do you know early man was not "travel long distances"? How much distancce do you think scavengers actually travel? I think they called them hunter gatheres not scavengers. There is a difference. Did we evolve to be something? " we evolved to be very adaptive"?

What does that mean. First of all I know it's wrong but go ahead and explain yourself.

Seriously where do you get this stuff?

I would be happy to discuss the benefits and short commings of both endurace "aerobic" as you call it exercise and strength training. I have done (8 years ) of research in muscle physiology so I am well versed in that area.

None the less it appears you need to come down off you high horse and stop passing your self off as the all knowing expert. I can cut and past links to.>>

NONAME, Alan may not bit, but I will. May I suggest that the cardiovascular developments of running are overstated by exercise physiologists and that these benefits occur very quickly, and in the case of well trained runners, there are no further developments to be made, rather maintenence of these developments is all we can hope for.

The biggest developments are neural not cardiovascular.

Well, that's intersting what are the "neural developments" and how do they measure them? How do you know that they are bigger? Are these changes in sympathetic tone? Autonomic regulation? Motor unit number? I am interested in hearing your response as I can't think of many possibilities. It can't be motor unit recruitment as I know no one has figured out a good way to measure that during dynamic multiple limb exercise.

I do think the cardiovascular adaptations, I think you use the word developments, are overstated but what is not overstated are the health benefits of cardiovascular exercise. Which is not the same thing as an adaptation that is clearly linked to exercise perrformance. I think the original post - the gym dude that was clearly confused - had more to do with the health benefits - or negative consequences- of cardiovascular exercise, many of the benefits can not be meassured in the gym or even in a typical exercise science lab.

If you write that you run 800s between 2:40 - 50 and also write you cant run a 200m faster than 42s (2:48), you do realize it is going to take away the impact of engrossing statements like "The ones that will have sex in the bathroom, even if the door doesn't lock" when you refer to slutty chicks?

I mean, come on! Whaddaya think: nobody here seen an action movie???

I'm just responding to the part about running not working towards weight loss. when i started running i went from 180 to 160 in a month, and i only got my running up to about 25 miles a week in the beginning. i have found that the desire to eat excessively happens anytime i work to hard, as in if i ran myself to hard or lifted for too long.

NONAME wrote:

Alan, you do not know as much as you think you know. I have read many of your posts on this thread and others and I find, in this post in particular, you are providing half-truths and speculation. Understand the limits of your knowledge. This last post in particular is a perfect example.

How dare you question Alan's knowledge!! He is a personal trainer who reads body building magazines, ie, he is an expert at all things fitness, physiology, anthropology, nutrition, etc. What part of PER-SON-AL TRAIN-ER don't you understand????

NONAME wrote:Seriously where do you get this stuff?

bodybuilding magazines and from his behind.

Did you know that one needs to consume at least 300g of protein a day in order to build any muscle mass? Yup, even if you are a a skinny 65kg runner looking to put on a little mass. Yup, that's over 4.5 g/kg. Ask Alan, he'll tell you allllllllll about it. (and oh yeah, soy is EXTREMELY bad for you, even in moderation. Alan has plenty of these gems. Just ask him)

You know I should have guessed he was a personal trainer. That explains everything.:

NONAME wrote:

Alan, you do not know as much as you think you know. I have read many of your posts on this thread and others and I find, in this post in particular, you are providing half-truths and speculation. Understand the limits of your knowledge. This last post in particular is a perfect example.

How dare you question Alan's knowledge!! He is a personal trainer who reads body building magazines, ie, he is an expert at all things fitness, physiology, anthropology, nutrition, etc. What part of PER-SON-AL TRAIN-ER don't you understand????

NONAME wrote:Seriously where do you get this stuff?

bodybuilding magazines and from his behind.

Did you know that one needs to consume at least 300g of protein a day in order to build any muscle mass? Yup, even if you are a a skinny 65kg runner looking to put on a little mass. Yup, that's over 4.5 g/kg. Ask Alan, he'll tell you allllllllll about it. (and oh yeah, soy is EXTREMELY bad for you, even in moderation. Alan has plenty of these gems. Just ask him)[/quote]

I love how everything I say now is taken to extremes. That's great.

I give information and opinions about health, nutrition, strength, and general exercise backed by experts in the field and peer reviewed research.

If you decide not to believe a word I say that is your loss.

You can give people the tools for success. However, success is intimidating for those who have never experienced it.

I have a Bachelors in Exercise Science and have studied exercise physiology. I also have a Health & Fitness Specialist Certification from the American College of Sports Medicine. I'm studying for the CSCS and just waiting for the funds to come through. That doesn't matter....that's just letters after your name. Some of the dumbest people I know have lots of letters after their names. Beyond my formal education I am a former 2:32 marathoner and 1:09 half-marathon (great? No...just respectable enough) and I am always reading research and articles from experts in the field of health, nutrtition, strength and exercise (Dr. John Berardi, Dr. Johnny Bowden, Dr. Lonnie Lowery, Charles Poliquin, Mike Robertson, Mike Boyle, Paul Chek, Eric Cressey, and many more)

Listen to your doctor, who has as much 'formal' nutrition education as me, one undergrad class...Listen to the FDA, who's shoving us full of over-processed foods filled with trans fat and high fructose corn syrup....listen to the so called "conventional wisdom"...and fail. OR you can expand your knowledge outside your usual box of 50 year old outdated research and adhere to what has been tried and true and what has been tested and approved.

Whatever you decide I will still be here helping those who truly want it, providing advice to those who wish to seek their athletic or health-related goal. There is an optimal way of doing things and way "just to get by". The success I have brought to people and the success of those I follow is undeniable. I'm done with this thread.

Alan

Runningart2004 wrote:

I'm done with this thread.

Alan

(boohoo...takes his ball and goes home)

Alan, never never never take what's written on this message board personally. You're just asking for instant elevated cortisol levels.

I have read much of what you have written and I can say, without a doubt, it is what I would expect from someone with your training.

I have a BS and MS in Exercise Science and I was a serious student however many of my fellow student were the "athletic trainer" types. I guess like you. I would suggest that not only do you not have the credentials but you also appear to lack the intelligence. I have read very little on here to suggest otherwise. May be you lack the training to approach a question in a scientific manner.

I suggest you take some courses outside of Exercise Science so that you can learn something about physiology and nutrition.

Really much of what you have written on here does not make any sense. What was really hilarious was your little quip about evolution "We evolved to be very adaptive and to use our brains....well most of us..;)". We evolved to be adaptive?? It's ironic that you end a flawed statetment like that with a little jab.

I suggest you read a few books on evolution as you are putting the cart before the horse here buddy. I am sure they didn't teach you about evolution in your exercise science curriculum so maybe you should leave that subject alone.

Sorry your little certificates from ACSM, etc., hold no weight with me. I have been to their conferences, 5 or 6 of them and stopped going 7 years ago because the quality of the science is lacking. I noticed this as a young graduate student. I'm no genius the stuff there is really that bad. I am sure you fit in well there. It's not all crap but most of it is and this is why the field had such a bad reputation.

I think what irritates me the most about your posts is that you state these things with such authority and I will repeat much of it is not correct at all. Or only partially correct. Really your little diatribe about anaerobic exercise resulting in benefits to the cardiovascular system. No shit Sherlock but do you really think that was a purely anaerobic exercise? Do you really think that mitochondrial respiration did not change during or after the bouts of exercise? Is there really an exercise that is truly "anaerobic" or "aerobic" for that matter?

You know just enough to be dangerous but not enough to realize that some of this stuff is very complicated and certainly not cut and dry.

Okay I will stop being a pr**k for a second and give some advice that I give undergrads and young grad students. Don't just read the papers that support you opinion read the ones that don't support your opinion and figure out if and why these data are contradictory. The data are always - well usually correct, if it is collected correctly - it is the interpretation that may be flawed.

Good luck home-schooling yourself to ACSM super-stardom. Unless you begin to realize how much you don't know you will continue to give out your bad advice and provide much nonsense for the letsrun.com readers. Good day.