Long Run Pace?/Wetmore

KK runs the whole run hard at marathon pace. His last two miles are just faster at 10k and 5k pace!

I almost always blast my long runs, unless a marathon is 4-5 weeks away. I love running, but sometimes 2.5 hours or more can get a little boring by myself.

Monty

The number one goal for the long run is to get in the miles. I do not recover from long runs and usually feel tired the next day. But my pace for my long runs is the same as my easy / recovery days usually around 6:45/ mile give or take. If I feel good I end up picking up the last few miles. But if I am in really good shape, I have done 1 min fartleks in the middle of my long run.

I also like to run the 2nd half faster than the first. I consider the long run a hard day that is just as important as my workout days, and usually like to push it in someway.

KK has the fastest marathon times in history. How does he do his? Nuff said.

Next question.

My runners ran long and slow one year. Guess what? It worked! We all ran long and slow.

College Coach wrote:

My runners ran long and slow one year. Guess what? It worked! We all ran long and slow.

If I may inquire? How long and how slow? on roads or trails?

You raise an interesting point. I have read just about every training book there is and there seems to be sharp disagreement among highly respected coaches about the pace of the long run.

Many such as Lydiard, Benson and Liquori say that the long run should be done at a strong aerobic effort (definitely not "slow" and not jogging), but at a slower pace than typical AT/tempo runs. They say the most important thing is time spent running on the long run which increases muscle capillarization and development of tiny beds of capillaries, increase the number of mitochondria in the cells and the ability to store glycogen. They say shorter tempo runs of 7-15 miles are the time for the hardest pace to increase heart stroke volume, heart size, and capillary density.

Many others such as Wetmore and Joe Vigil believe that the long run should not only be the longest, but the fastest paced or nearly fastest pace run of your weekly base building routine.

Who is correct? I don't know. Maybe it is not that significant. Maybe the real key is to run as many total miles per week averaging as close as possible to the anaerobic threshold as possible without breaking down and the details are not as not as significant? Very interesting question you ask that doesn't get talked about much.

By the way, I could care less about what most of the top of the heap Pro runners of today say they are doing concerning this issue. Many of the Pro runners are secretive and deliberately misleading about how they train. Also, drugs distort everything including what is the best way to train. You have to be careful, what is the best routine for someone taking drugs, will not be the best routine for someone not on drugs. For example, the best routine for a weight lifter on steroids is 25 sets per body part. The best for someone training natural is about 5 sets per body part. Another example is a natural runner during the anaerobic development phase who can barely handle one hard interval session per week but on steroids could handle and should ideally do 3 hard intervals sessions per week. Another example is Lagat running 3:44eq mile off of 40 miles per week. I can absolutely guarantee that 99% of you will fail to reach your full potential if you follow Lagat's 40 mile per week routine. The point I am making is to be wary of trying to copy the program of one of today's Pro runners. You are better off reading Lydiard's books, Liquori's book, Benson's books, Once a Runner (based on Shorter's and Jack B's training), Running with the Buff's (Outlining Wetmore's training) and Joe Vigil's book. Then go out and experiment and see what work's best for you.

KK does have the fastest 'thon in history but everyone isn't training for the marathon on this board.

Molvar - decent post. one clarification for original poster. The CU dudes do not do their long run faster than tempo/AT pace. They all start real easy and depending where they are gradually crank the pace down. If its top dudes Gouch, Torres, Ritz they may get down to 5:59/ mile on Mags. At the Grange(just outside Boulder 5430ft)they may get down towards 5:30's at the end but these guys are real good. The rest of the team is closer to 6min/mile out at the Grange and obviously slower up on Mags. Of course on their AT runs - all average 5:30 or under for 5mi at the CU Track. And Ritz / Torres are around 5min.

Wetmore would fall right in line with Lydiard - you can be sure of that.

Thanks Boulder dude for the clarification. I guess I was thinking of that one really hard 22 miler Goucher did. From reading the book, I got the impression that this was the fastest pace Goucher did with the exception of the track tempo runs. I guess it really wasn't the fastest.

I think most of the top runners and coaches cited here vary the pace of their long runs considerably.

What I read about Khannouchi's very hard long run was that he dreaded it and worried about it for several days beforehand. I seriously doubt it is a weekly thing. Probably more like once or twice during the build-up. There was a good article by Kevin Beck in RT a while back about this kind of long, hard training run.

Similarly, as far as I can gather from Vigil's book, he advocates a long hard run only once every 3 weeks or so.

I tend to run as I feel on the day in question. Some days this means I barely break 7:30 pace; other days it means I cruise along at sub-6 for most of the second half of the run.

Back in the day, I used to go at around 5:50 pace for 18 or so. To me it seemed to really improve my aerobic endurance better than just plodding along at a slower pace.

according to this website (http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Running%20University/Article%201/calculator.htm -- go to #4, article on long runs) doing a long SLOW run w/no carbs teaches your body to more easily burn fat, while a long run that\'s med/easy the first part, then picked up to LT pace the last half or last third, teaches your body to handle lactic acid (ie, run fast when tired). Any thoughts ??

(ps. my explainations are very much the \"short version\". read the article for the full explaination).

[quote]John Molvar wrote:

Many of the Pro runners are secretive and deliberately misleading about how they train. Also, drugs distort everything including what is the best way to train.

After years of non involvement in track, I saw Shorter at a race in Houston. I told him that I started reading RW and the training that the top runners were doing. I said that these things don't make sense to me and asked if he would change anything if he had it to do all over again. He responded with two things, First, don't believe what you read because they really don't want you to know. Second, "I wouldn't change a damn thing. Whatever you would have done with your kids back in the day, do now." I did.

"KK has the fastest marathon times in history. How does he do his? Nuff said" --BigDaddy'sDaddy

Just to update you, the marathon world record for men is now 2:04:55 by Paul Tergat. Sammy Korir ran the same race in 2:04:56. So your quote should say "KK has the 3rd-fastest marathon time in history. How does he do his?"

KK is a bitch, tergat slaps him around and when Geb steps up to marathon as his main event the record will fall. KK bitches out of the olympics, f*** KK he is a piece of shit