Rashid Ramzi 8 x 1k @ 2:30 With 90 Seconds Rest

This is one of those things that really shows the difference between absolute world class runners and the rest of us. I don't think that I could ever, even at my most fit, run 8 x 1k @ my 3k pace w/ 5:3 (work:recovery). That's what a long period of high-level training will do for you: allow you to handle these sort of workloads which in turn allows you to run world-beating times. The workout Ramzi describes, even watered down to my own pace with the same recovery ratio, is damn impressive-something I could write down on paper for a workout plan, but never complete.

I think the closest to this I've ever come is 8 x 1000 @ 5k pace w/ just less than equal recovery (this was hard, but not a race effort).

I seen many 8:25 3k runners hit 8x1k at 2:50. Makes sense that he could do that (the only thing that makes it that much more impressive is the piece about 90 second rest). Either way, it hurts.

makes sense wrote:

I seen many 8:25 3k runners hit 8x1k at 2:50. Makes sense that he could do that (the only thing that makes it that much more impressive is the piece about 90 second rest). Either way, it hurts.

this is right on. the workout seems reasonable based on what we did in college...but with more rest (like maybe 2min-2:30)

once you start doping though, recovery is much easier.

It's also easier if you're a superior talent who's had a tought childhood and not some namby-pamby westerner who grew up being bused to school, playing Nintendo and drowning in Big Macs.

That is a brutal workout. The rest being the hardest part.

I wonder if he broke this up into 2 sets in reality. maybe 2 x 4 x 1k with a 5 minute rest between sets. That seems a little more reasonable although still very tough.

Toughness has nothing to do with it. Neither does talent.

ANYONE can do 8 x 1k at 3k pace. The REST is the difference. I doubt he started at 90s rest out of the blue. Perform 8 x 1k at 3k pace with whatever rest you need. Then gradually work the rest down. With great endurance you can then move down to 90s rest.

Now here's the question for everyone. Is this an anaerobic workout or an aerobic workout....

AEROBIC. It is your aerobic system that determines the success of this workout with such a short rest. Your legs will be heavy. Your muscles will be on fire. Hydrogen will have turned your blood to battery acid. You will have better success in the last quarter of your race because of this workout and workouts like this.

Alan

How is 2:30 avg. 3K race pace? For whom? Bekele?

That is 4:00 1600 pace, not sure this is being viewed right, or am I missing something.This would be 8:03 two mile pace?Right?

I could do the rest. The trotting in between would make me a little tired.

Maybe by your handle "trialswatcher" we can assume you only watched the trials and not a single other world class meet? A lot of guys run in the 7:30s, check out the 2008 indoor list (top 10).

7:31.09 Tariku Bekele ETH

7:34.50 Craig Mottram AUS

7:34.6 Kenenisa Bekele ETH

7:34.65 Bernard Lagat USA

7:34.8 Paul Kipsiele Koech KEN

7:36.08 Kenenisa Bekele

7:36.24 Paul Kipsiele Koech

7:36.70 Edwin Cheruiyot Soi KEN

7:37.09 Tariku Bekele

7:38.03 Abreham Cherkos ETH

Check your math.

7:38 is not 2:30 per kilo even. So what I said is exactly correct.

7:30 is 2:30.00 last time I looked, and only one guy was close last year, do not try and make it look like 7:30 which is 2:30 per is common it is not.

Not even one guy ran 2:30.00 per last year.Mottran all out ran 2:31.5 x 3 once.

Well it ain't exactly mile pace either, is it.

trialswatcher wrote:

Check your math.

7:38 is not 2:30 per kilo even. So what I said is exactly correct.

7:30 is 2:30.00 last time I looked, and only one guy was close last year, do not try and make it look like 7:30 which is 2:30 per is common it is not.

Not even one guy ran 2:30.00 per last year.Mottran all out ran 2:31.5 x 3 once.

King, I would be very surprised if Ramzi could not run 7:30 for 3k.

I don't know why that guy used the indoor 3000 list.

Outdoors 2008 two guys ran 7:31 and another two ran 7:32. In 2007 Bekele ran 7:25, then 3 other guys ran 7:32 (one of whom was Alistair Cragg). In 2006 you had one guy at 7:28, two at 7:29, one at 7:30, two at 7:31, and two at 7:32 (none of whom were KB).

So in conclusion, while 7:30-ish is still crazy fast, it happens a few times per year, every year. It's not unreasonable to assume the best 1500 guy in the world is close.

No, it is not unreasonable to think that Ramzi could run in the 7:30's at all.

But that workout on 90 secs is a pretty tough one to make all the numbers on for anyone who is not close to a 7:30's guy I would think.

8? at that, that is quite a bit of volume at those number.s

just throwing it out there wrote:

I don't know why that guy used the indoor 3000 list.

Outdoors 2008 two guys ran 7:31 and another two ran 7:32. In 2007 Bekele ran 7:25, then 3 other guys ran 7:32 (one of whom was Alistair Cragg). In 2006 you had one guy at 7:28, two at 7:29, one at 7:30, two at 7:31, and two at 7:32 (none of whom were KB).

So in conclusion, while 7:30-ish is still crazy fast, it happens a few times per year, every year. It's not unreasonable to assume the best 1500 guy in the world is close.

Good call, laziness on my part. I threw up the indoor list because I automatically thought 3k/indoor event, maybe a deeper list. You're right though. More current, more pertinent.

To the other guy, thanks, I actually do realize that 7:38 is not even 2:30s. But I think that there are a handful of guys who can put together a 7:30, which goes to the point you were contesting, should Ramzi train for 7:30 pace? Well, sure he should, that's top 3k pace in the world and he's one of the top competing athletes. It's called "goal race pace," and a lot of people use it in training.

Well if he wants the 3000m WR...and he did this workout as stated...he should be able to come close.

90sec rest would be considered a cruise interval by most

so for sub 7:30 he should be around 2:40 per K with 90sec rest.

Rojo,

I agree with you that I wouldn't try this workout on most people.

Here are some guidelines I use for VO2 max workouts - they are similar to Dr. Daniels - and how Ramzi's workout compares.

- Repeats are between 800 to 1600 in length (so 1k is a nice fit)

- Pace should be 3k to 5k race pace (Ramzi's workout is definately on the quick side of this).

- Rest is 75% to 100% of run time (Ramzi's 90 second is just 60% of run time)

- Total repeat distance is 6-8% of weekly mileage with a maximum of 6 miles (8k worth of work is on the long side of this but fits.) If on the longer side of things the pace would be 5k rather than 3k.

In general if I had my runners do this workout it would probably be more like 8 x 1k @ 5k pace and with 75-100% of run time recovery and we'd consider it one of the harder ones we do.

Some other notes:

I wonder what Ramzi did for his recovery. If he jogged or if he just slowly walked around. If he walked and hung around the start area the rest, while still short, may be comparable to a little longer recovery while jogging.

Also I have noted in the past that many international middle distance runners, in particular the North Africans, are in to doing high volume VO2 Max and Fast Interval work, but they break the workout into sets in order to get in the higher volumes. So 8 x 1k may be done as 2 x 4 x 1k, as pointed out by someone earlier in the thread, with up a mile jog between sets. If done that way it may explain the shorter rest between repeats (because a longer rest was taken between sets).

However you slice it, it was a beast of a workout if its true. We all know some runners propensity to exagerate slightly or leave out certain details (like breaking the repeats into sets) when retelling workout. But nothing surprises me too much when you are talking about the workout abilities of world class athletes at their peak.

- MPR

A big mistake that people make is to look at these workouts of Olympic champions, and then blindly try to copy them as if that is the secret to their success.

I am sure Ramzi had to work his way up to being able to handle that workout. He didn't just fall out of bed running 8 x 1k @ 2:30 pace with 90 secs recovery. He probably progressed from 6 x 1k @ 2:36 pace with 2 min rest, and then worked his way up to being able to handle the challenging workout above. I have always liked the idea of running 1000's with little rest at a fast pace. But a runner has to progress to that point. There are a lot of painful days of not being able to handle 6 or 7 times 1k with 2 min rest. But a good coach will work his or her athlete to being able to handle it.

cruise intervals wrote:

Well if he wants the 3000m WR...and he did this workout as stated...he should be able to come close.

90sec rest would be considered a cruise interval by most

so for sub 7:30 he should be around 2:40 per K with 90sec rest.

He did say the recovery depends upon if his heart-rate had recovered within that time - so he may have been getting more than that recovery, perhaps even only some of them with that little of recovery.

You can't get too carried away with ,what is presumably, Physiology-based terminology (Daniels), not that can't be useful, by like Canova says - you are dealing with extarordinary people training outside of the "normal" palying field of "proper" scientific training - assuming that Daniel's-type terminology defines training. Look at some of the sessions that Coe has supposedly done years ago - 6x800m (1.30 rec) on the road - in 1.51!! for example. Ramzi may be pushing the envelope here, and the point may well be not that he has accomplished such a tough workout, but is it really helping him to race faster? In other words is it a necessary session in helping him to run a faster 1500m, and/or is he looking to run a faster 3k/5k race in the near future.

I haven't heard much about the sessions that El G used to run, but (given his 3.26/12.48 range) this might be the benchmark of what might be accomplished at that level - and Ramzi is a Morrocan (by birth) who trained with El G, perhaps this session is in line with what El G was doing. The short recovery may be the extra "gear" that takes it to the next level. Look at 400m reps(10-12x) - Bannister tried to run sub-60 sec repeats (aim sub 4min) with 2 minutes recovery (1:2 work:rest ratio) 50+ years ago; Cram tried to run 56-57sec repeats (perhaps faster) with one minute recovery(1:1 work:rest ratio) almost 25 years ago; El G supposedly ran them is 53-55sec (1500m GP) with 30sec recovery (1:1/2 work:rest ratio) a decade ago.