Hadd in the hills

I follow the Hadd plan myself. You're overthinking it. Of course, your HR is going to rise while going uphill. Just slow pace up a bit and start climbing with HIGH knees. You DON'T have to strictly atay within the HR range. It's okay if you get out of it for a few minutes. Once you crest the hill, just work on getting back into the HR range.

Not sure about Hadd, you can ask him directly I suppose, but in similar "methods" (Maffetone's for instance) you're supposed to slow on the hills during your base phase. Eventually you'll get faster, but you should strive to stay below your target heart rate. Maffetone mentions that you may even have to walk up steep hills at first. Once your base is built you can start adding harder stuff (at higher heart rates). Mark Allen (multi-IM champion) used this method quite successfully.

My general advice is not to push the hills hard, but go up them at a comfortable pace and accept that the HR is gonna climb to allow this. Let it do so, but bring it back under control once you get back on the flat.

Of course, if your normal training route is very hilly, this could mean that you spend more time above the planned HR zone than actually within the zone. In which case, you will not get the right training effect, so find another less hilly route, at least until your fitness improves to such an extent that your HR can stay within the zone on uphills.

As the other guy said, don't over-think it. You are just trying to spend a large percentage of your time within a training HR zone. Going outside the zone (above it) for a few moments won't do any harm so long as the majority of time is spent where it should be.

Thanks for your responses.

Ok I get all that, what I'm kinda intrigued about is this idea of recruiting different muscles on hills.

Let's say you stay in the workout target zone, but repeat a Grade of hill. surely you will access a range of muscles that aren't normally trained in that same zone on the flat.

is that going to give you a head start on strength / speed training, when the time is appropriate?

To Hadd; can I just say on a personal level how grateful I am to you for giving your time, patience and energy to a wider audience and sticking with it. your writings gave me the belief that I could get back to running and be comfortable. I stopped because life got in the way, and because (as I now know) I was doing it all wrong! Anyway I'm really loving it and have developed an ambition to run the big northern hemisphere marathons, London, Paris, Berlin, NYC, Boston, Chicago. I'm also joining my local 'Harriers' what fun! anyway, Thanks so much.

Thanks for the kind words, mate. It's all good fun. I can talk about running and training 24 hrs a day (so can Cabral when you get him going). Good luck with your plans, you've got some healthy ambitions there, running all the big-city events. Get after it!

Let's turn to your point about recruiting different muscles on uphills...

We do want to recruit different muscles in order to improve the aerobic conditioning of all of them in time, but it is important what conditions we recruit them under. If we want to improve them aerobically, we need to recruit them under as-aerobic-conditions as possible.

We need to get you to where you can run at 85-90% HRmax and have you really comfortable and able to hold the pace for a long time (even a marathon, in time). So that means you need to be able to recruit all the fibres required without provoking any of them to over-use of their lactate energy system. So we want to recruit them at the easiest intensity possible so as not to provoke this.

If you go spanking uphill (today), you will have to recruit some powerful Type II fibres which will have to work glycolytically (at present) and hence build lactate. This is because those fibres do not currently have enough internal mitochondria to deal with the pyruvate post-glycolysis. In short, you're gonna be building lactate climbing that hill at anything more than easy pace (today).

So how will that improve the aerobic conditions of those fibres? You just used them glycolitically. If anything, they will adapt to become better at generating energy glycolitically ... and not oxidatively like you want.

So, long story short, you want to recruit ever stronger fibres, but you want to recruit them under as aerobic conditions as poss. This will stimulate them to adapt to become better able to generate energy oxidatively (aerobically) in future.

Some weeks/months down the line you will be able to boogie up today's hills and generate a lot less lactate than you would at present ... precisely because at that time you will have improved the oxidative ability of the fibres you recuit.

Hope that helps. Stick to the flat (mainly) for now and control the HR.

Here's a thing!

You know I get folks to run long at controlled HRs and generally get them to have 2 "uptempo" days per week when they run at higher HRs (anything from 80-90% HRmax depending on where they are in training)?

Also do the following (and especially if you are a more-ST kind of runner). BEFORE each of those two uptempo sessions (usually Tue/Fri), run 6-8 x 100m "strides" with 100m jog recovery in ~45 secs before you go into the main session.

Now it is VITAL that you control the pace of those strides, so these are NOT EVER to be run as fast as possible (AFAP). You want to run them at ~1500m pace for the 100m and float the 100m following in 45 secs. DO NOT WALK the recovery float. We often do these are stride the straights, jog the bends, to complete the warm-up.

Don't know what 1500m pace is? Here's the rule of thumb.

It is 10-12 secs/lap (per 400m) faster than your current 10k pace. So if 10k pace is 1:30/lap (37:30 for 10k), then 1500m pace is NO FASTER THAN 90-12 = 78s or 1:18/lap or 4:52/1500m. (it might be a coupla secs either way, but don't sweat the small stuff).

If you have a current 1500m PR and it is wayyy faster than 12 secs/lap quicker than 10k pace (because your 10k pace is poor right now), don't worry, just go with the 12/secs lap faster than 10k pace rule for now. When 10k pace improves, so will the 100m "stride" pace. In this circumstance, do not run the 100s at your current 1500m pace.

So, if you 10k PB is 37:30, you would run 6-8 x 100m in 19-20 secs (78 secs/lap divided by 4) with 100m jog recovery in ~45 secs (never slower).

Doing them faster than this is NOT better, so don't even bother. Just do them as advised and then get into your main aerobic HR-controlled session.

Hadd wrote:

Also do the following (and especially if you are a more-ST kind of runner). BEFORE each of those two uptempo sessions (usually Tue/Fri), run 6-8 x 100m "strides" with 100m jog recovery in ~45 secs before you go into the main session.

Doing them faster than this is NOT better, so don't even bother. Just do them as advised and then get into your main aerobic HR-controlled session.

Hadd,

This is Zohaib from Texas. We met during the Texas Independence Relay. Jay coaches me.

Thanks for all of this great info that you provide here on letsrun.

I do have a few quick questions about these striders (I'm pretty interested in this as I'm very ST).

First, what is the reasoning behind doing these BEFORE the uptempo sessions? I have been doing these striders post-easy runs 2-3 times a week. Should I not do that?

I know that the reasoning behind these striders are to teach STs to produce more lactate. You talk about not doing them faster than 1500m pace. But in the mail that you snet to Jay and I regarding my training, you actually asked me to do these at sub-800m pace. Is it because of my very very abundant ST fibers?

Finally, just a question about running up these hills at a "glycolytic" effort. For runners like me who are very ST, is it okay to try and go up these hills semi-hard to help us produce more lactate? Or is that just a stupid question?

I hope you can clear all of this up. Again, thanks for all the input.

Hadd,

Just another quick question. Not regarding hills but uptempo running. I know that you ask your runners in phase I, to not do more than 2-3 sessions a week of uptempo running. But I usually find myself turning my easy runs into a progression, where I spend the last third (even half at times) of a 60 min at M-effort to 5K-effort (10K-5K stretch only lasts 2-3 minutes).

All of this seems easy and I seem to recover from all of this uptempo running (which amounts to anywhere from 3-5 times a week (planned tempos AND spontaneous progressions)). So, if I'm recovering from all of this faster running... should I just keep it up or should I try and make my runs easier? I do supplement a faster run on a day with a slower and strictly-easy run later on the evening (45-75 min).

Thanks.

Thanks for your extensive reply Hadd, useful pointers in there as usual. not quite ready for those paces yet, but it will come, I've saved your advice so I can refer back to it later.

there is a free 5k tt every Saturday in Hove Park (not too far for me) and I am going to run it once a month and base the next months schedules on the 5k results. Hopefully I'll also see some good progression as the months go by.

Ok I'm now completely clear about how to execute phase 1 training, so I guess I'd better get my head down and get on with it.

Bring it on! Cheers and best of health to you.

Ian

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Just caught this right now. What's with all the spamming this morning?

Zohaib, how you doin? We never did get to talk, did we? Going out the door in 1 minute, so no time to reply, but I will get back to this later today. My best to you and Jay.

Good questions, Zohaib/ATX. Without wanting to “write a book” in reply, lemme make a quick stab at it. Since you always have Jay’s coaching knowledge and experience to discuss them with, what I write should be enough to answer your initial queries.

Here we go:

Q: What is the reasoning behind doing these BEFORE the uptempo sessions? I have been doing these striders post-easy runs 2-3 times a week. Should I not do that?

A: These “strides” are gonna use (only) muscle glycogen. Therefore I like runners to do them PRE-session when the muscles are most glycogen-loaded. If you do them POST-session, then there is every likelihood that your muscles will be more glycogen-depleted, which means we won’t get the response we want. Remember, we want to provoke glycolysis on these strides, and that means 100% glycogen-fuelled.

Q: You talk (on here) about not doing [strides] faster than 1500m pace. But in the mail that you sent to Jay and I regarding my training, you actually asked me to do these at sub-800m pace. Is it because of my very very abundant ST fibers?

A: These strides are vital for ST runners, the reason being that their glycolytic (lactate) system is naturally weak due to their preponderance of ST fibres. I give general guides that these should be done at ~1500m pace, because that will provoke glycolysis on a regular enough basis to keep that system perking along, because if you put an ST on Phase I for a long period of time (lots of long slow HR-controlled sessions) they risk becoming stuck-in-second-gear-ultra-marathoners, as their glycolytic systems (which start already weak) atrophy even further through lack of stimulation.

So, two uptempo sessions per week and 6-8 reps of alternating 100-100 (100m at 1500m pace immediately followed by 100m jog in 45secs) before each session. Think of it like striding the straights and jogging the bends.

Now these are NEVER AFAP (as fast as possible), so running them faster is not the point. We don’t want tons of lactate, we don’t want to interfere with the workout that follows, they are simply to provide regular stimulus for your glycolytic system.

So why did I tell Jay and you to do them faster? Let’s say you get a kid on day one and tell him to take off running and to turn back when he gets tired. He starts (like you) in Texas … and the next thing the coach knows, he’s getting a call from Canada and the kid wants to know if he can come home! Straight away the coach knows he has an ST-monster on his hands.

BTW; big difference between ST and FT on day one. The ST can go off and jog for 30-60 mins no problem. The FT is wayyy less keen on that and maybe tires after 15 mins, and he would much rather go and do a set of fast 200m intervals with standstill recovery (which the ST hates).

So, the coach has an “ultra-ST” on his hands. What the coach MUST do is avoid the knee-jerk reaction of “okaaaay! Got myself a marathon runner here! Right; we need mega long runs, regular tempos, and that’s it.” Nothing could be more wrong. That would be the wrongliest thing the coach could do.

Jay has often heard me say that everyone will run their marathon PR at a fraction of their 5k PR pace. Makes sense, right? From experience, I know that ST’s are capable of running marathons at as high as 90% of their track 5k PR pace. So, although your ultimate best performances are going to come at the marathon, it should make perfectly logical sense to maximize your 5k ability before you even turn to the marathon. Every second you shave off your 5k PR, is gonna have a knock-on positive effect on your eventual marathon PR.

So far that advice makes sense not only for STs but also for FTs. Let’s face it, this is what elites do; maximize ability at 5k and only then turn to the marathon. So nothing new there.

But even more than that (and this is MUCH more relevant to STs than FTs), if you are a young guy (like you), got a long running career ahead of you, got some potential, tons of enthusiasm and good coach, do this…

If you are a strong-ST (can head for Canada …) spend a couple of years becoming the absolute best 800m runner you can be!

Sounds illogical, huh? T’isn’t. Even though you will never shake the trees at 800m. Even though you will get everybody and his brother outkicking you at 800m. The more time and effort you invest in maximizing your potential at that distance, the more it will pay off in spades when you (eventually) graduate to the marathon. Hell, you’ll feel the benefits at every single distance on the way up.

So don’t worry about getting beaten, just keep chipping away at that 800m PR.

So, in a strong-ST, a serious rate-limiter to performance at all other longer distances is ability at 800m. Work on it ad nauseam for at least 2 full years. It’s money in the bank with the payout coming with interest when you move up.

And another thing; once you achieve that 800m PR, never get too far away from being able to repeat it on demand! If you get to (let’s say) 2:15, never lose the ability to go to the track any time of the season and run 2:18. Don’t worry, it’s easy for ST’s to maintain this ability … you just gotta work at it.

Hell, even Seb Coe once said that he also made sure he could go down to the track any time of the year and run 1:48. He would expect to run 1:42-1:43 in peak season, so he’s allowing himself more leeway than I advise for you, but it’s easier for ST’s to keep the numbers close together.

Q: Finally, just a question about running up these hills at a "glycolytic" effort. For runners like me who are very ST, is it okay to try and go up these hills semi-hard to help us produce more lactate? Or is that just a stupid question?

A: There are no stupid questions! Note what I said above, we do not want to provoke tons of lactate on these pre-session strides, so hills are not a substitute for those. However, it is necessary for STs to improve their glycolytic ability (as we just discussed) so hills do have a place. I would suggest finding a hill not too steep and running very very hard for 30-40 secs, and taking a longish recovery between each one.

As an ST you will feel “recovered” quite quickly, but you must beware; it is your “aerobic” system that has recovered, not your “anaerobic” system. We want to give you enough time for your “anaerobic” ie: glycolytic system to recover. You’ll know it hasn’t if the next rep is slower. Be careful with these, you don’t need too many.

Q: I know that you ask your runners in Phase I, to not do more than 2-3 sessions a week of uptempo running. But I usually find myself turning my easy runs into a progression, where I spend the last third (even half at times) of a 60 min at M-effort to 5K-effort (10K-5K stretch only lasts 2-3 minutes).

A: I thought you said “Finally …” up above? Here’s another question! (smile) To be frank, I don’t like progression runs. Let’s look at the point of Phase I. We want to train the runner to be able to run (up to quick paces) without having to provoke any blood lactate build-up. In other words, we want the runner to do so at under 2mM BLa. That isn’t gonna happen once you hit Mpace and faster … so, although you are doing some form of training, it is no longer “Phase I” when you pass Mpace (here we are defining Mpace as >90% HRmax).

What I find happens when runners do like you suggest, is that instead of easy days and hard days, they wind up getting lots of medium days. In other words, the easy days are not easy enough, so the hard days cannot be hard enough! I would counsel against doing what you are doing. Talk it out with Jay. If need be, contact me and we can discuss it some more.

Okay. I’m done. Keep up the good work, Zohaib!

Hadd wrote:

If you are a strong-ST (can head for Canada …) spend a couple of years becoming the absolute best 800m runner you can be!

Sounds illogical, huh? T’isn’t. Even though you will never shake the trees at 800m. Even though you will get everybody and his brother outkicking you at 800m. The more time and effort you invest in maximizing your potential at that distance, the more it will pay off in spades when you (eventually) graduate to the marathon. Hell, you’ll feel the benefits at every single distance on the way up.

So don’t worry about getting beaten, just keep chipping away at that 800m PR.

Kinda like how a certain Mr. Hall worked for so long at the mile..?

I'm doing good here. I'm getting a much better grasp on training and physiology as I'm taking some exercise physiology courses here at the university. It's good to be able to connect all the dots together. I presume, in the end, I just might be a better coach (which I might do just for fun sakes) than I will ever be a runner. I'll be honest, at times I do hate the cards that have been dealt to me when I'm feeling slow.

On the other hand, it seems like Jay has his hands full with a new addition to his family. Although, he did have a huge jump in fitness over the summer. He's got some big plans in the marathon in the next few months.

I was only looking for a brief reply. Thanks (a lot!) for the effort you put into your reply (like you always do). Certainly, gives me a much clearer picture about my training.

I'll start adding those striders @ 1500m effort as a warm-up to my marathon-pace sessions. Along with that, I think I will also do these striders @ sub-800m effort and/or those 30-40 secs hill reps, as a completely separate session by itself (sandwiched by an easy warm-up and cool-down only - nothing more). Would this be a good way to get the best of both worlds?

Thanks again, for the input. It's very much appreciated. Hope you are doing well.

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ATX wrote:

I'll start adding those striders @ 1500m effort as a warm-up to my marathon-pace sessions...

Actually, if you read what I posted, I would not have you doing any "marathon-paced" sessions right now. I don't know any 800m runners who do such things.

I meant what I said; ditch the marathon work and just aim to get better and better at 800-1500. Jay is a 4:14 miler so he should have a good handle on that training.

If you have any queries, email me at hadd101.

Hadd, you are doing the same thing you advise against; overthinking the hill running. Running hills hard at any time of year doesn't prevent aerobic development of either fast or slow twitch fibers. Running hills "glycolytically"

(that's the spelling I prefer) is normal and natural and not going the cause the problems you imagine. Producing a lot of glycolytic ATP and lactate on a hill during training and racing is normal and does not detract from generating energy oxidatively, although good pace judgement is important of course, hills should almost always be tackled aggressively, otherwise confidence in ones ability is quickly lost and the benefits are not gained.

That's why good cross country runners do lots of hard hill reps in training. It doesn't take a long time to develop the oxidative capacity of fast twitch fibers, a few weeks at most and if the runner is already well trained, then this adaption is already in place. When we have this aerobic capacity we need to train hard to develop our neuro-muscular co-ordination for extending our ability to run at fast paces for a long time, and hills are a good place to start.