Time for complete overhaul of 'how to train' US elite distance runners: the system is broken

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15 years ago 08/19/2008 7:47pm EDT

re: ianstewart

The second main cause of geographically distributed genetic variation is due to non-uniform sampling of a population. The main cause is founder effect, this is the effect of a small group of individuals migrating from a larger group and founding a new population, if the migrating population represents only a small subset of the parental population, then it will not be genetically representative of the parental population (sampling error). Small founding populations are also subject to genetic drift, which may further alter allele frequencies. An example of this is the human migration out of Africa, it has been theorised that the migration out of Africa only represented a small fraction of the genetic variation in East Africa, and that this is the cause of the observed lower levels of diversity in all indigenous non-African humans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation

The only way an American will ever compete with the Africans is to either a: hope that a rare genetic talent tries out and trains properly, or b: institute a national long distance talent search.

Whites are a generic adapted race. Africans are a representation of the physical constraints of humanity. Running just happens to be one of the sports that anyone can try out.

15 years ago 08/19/2008 7:56pm EDT

re: what happned cross the pond

yes the likes of Dave Bedford,Eammon Martin,Steve Jones ,Ian Thomson,Steve Ovett, Brenden Foster were the great names of UK distance running. They were produced by putting in hours and miles of training with little science and technology to help them. They were true grit and totally dedicated and committed to running at any cost.No fuss or pandering - just hard work and patience!

15 years ago 08/19/2008 8:05pm EDT

re: ianstewart

....what happened over in Great Britain?

15 years ago 08/19/2008 8:41pm EDT

re: so...

15 years ago 08/19/2008 8:54pm EDT

re: RUS

RUS wrote:
High school distance running is at an all-time high, with more kids participating then ever before. I also believe there is a shift that's occurring, where h.s. athletes are running more miles and are being trained better. Look at the depth that's started up again in the high school distance events. The collegiate level is starting to reep the rewards of that process and are helping our athletes improve greatly.
I think that perhaps why we aren't doing as well internationally is the lack of development post-collegiately. Nearly every Ethiopian and Kenyan runner runs in a camp-like setting year round. The best high school athletes go to these camps after they graduate and live there for years training and racing.
While we've seen great strides made in bringing together the best in the country in recent years (i.e. Hansons, Team USA, OTC, etc.), the support for our "second tier" athletes is awful. It seems as though the top ten seniors every year take a stab at running professionally, while the 11-30 athletes are left standing around pondering whether to go at it alone or just call it a career.
Right now I can count about ten post-collegiate training groups in the U.S. We need 25+ groups (with ten athletes) providing resources (coaching, stipends, medical, etc) to simply mimic the other major sports that the U.S. excels in. Furthermore, these groups need to not be funded by running companies (Nike, adidas, NYRR). We also need many of these groups to focus on the 800, mile and steeplechase. We dominate in the 400m and shorter sprints every year, yet we can't dominate in the 800 or mile? How many great coaches are out there for the middle distance events? Develop 30+ milers every year with proper resources and eventually that will pay off with more 5k and 10k type runners as well, as these athletes get stronger, more explosive and develop their mechanics enough to handle the 5k and 10k.
Strong, year-round training groups, with good coaching, decent resources, and a focus on building strength AND speed is what every level of American distance running needs to focus on.

Again, great ideas -- in a perfect world. It is an encouraging sign that track and cc are as popular as ever on the scholastic level, despite the scourge of wii and satellite teevee, and that there is a really solid and widespread level of performance showing up again after the drought of the '90s. Again, though, where will the funding come from? Entities with sufficiently deep pockets (outside of the shoe companies) are not engaging in bidding wars to support t&f on the whole (incl. the glamorous and sexy sprints), let alone the distance running niche. If I were to see a sensible fund-raising plan I, for one, would get completely behind it. I imagine a lot of other people would, too. This money is not going to materialize out of thin air or fall from the trees. This worsening economy certainly does not help in attracting support for anything other than a sure thing. It would take a lot of money just to set up even five of those proposed training centers with medical, gear, stipends, and coaching for 10 athletes per center, let alone continue to maintain them for 4+ years and let alone for 25+ training centers.

15 years ago 08/19/2008 9:19pm EDT

re: HRE

HRE I suggest you read the entire thread by John Hadd and Antonio Cabral. I think there are one or two things you could learn from them.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 10:38am EDT

re: coacht

coacht wrote:
Need more pop and spring wrote:
Because my feet spend more time on the ground than the faster guys.
BINGO!!!! The best athletes, whether sprinters or distance runners, are quick and light on their feet. Few coaches start with how to run and spend their energy on what to run. Absolutely backwards.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Right, someone who actually gets it. The fastest distance runners are more economical because they have a better running action.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 10:42am EDT

re: HRE

HRE wrote:
In the 60s, 70s and early 80s, US runners were, as a group, doing more miles than they'd ever done before and were more successful internationally than they'd ever been. come the late 80s and 90s we got into this lower volume "quality" stuff and the bottom fell out. Now we've got guys like Sell and Hall doing the miles again and we're seeing somewhat better performaces.
Of course there's more to it than miles. But I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you've never done really high volume for a good stretch of time because tehre is nothing easy about it. Yes, on a given day running 15 miles in te evening after you've done 7 in the morning might seem easier than doing 15 hard 400s or some sort of gym work. But go back and do that same 7 and 15 day after day, month after month, then come back and tell me how easy it is. I've done both and I know which was harder and that's why I'm very suspicious of these claims that you don't need a lot of miles to run as well as you possibly can. Really high volume. maintained for an extended time is tough and time consuming and people constantly look for ways around it.
Look to the Africans. They run a lot, starting at pretty arly ages. At some point hey add the faster stuff. But when they get to that bit of adding the faster stuff they've generally run thousands more miles than western runners of comparable ages.
I'm always interested in learning stuff but I'd like it to come from a source which has validated their opinion at least to some extent. It's not just your time you're wasting with your postings.

HRE, you are missing the point, I'm not arguing about mileage, and anyways I run plenty mileage. The fastest distance runners have better power and efficiency in their stride.

SO:

Better stride power and efficiency at race paces= less oxygen cost at race paces.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 10:51am EDT

re: no excuses.....

no excuses..... wrote:
this disgraceful and embarassing showing by the US, the richest country in the world, with the best training facilities and opportunities to succeed in the world is BROKEN. Time for a completely new system. Any ideas?

Uh.......when's the last time we won an olympic medal in the middle distances. It's been broken for a LLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG time.

I believe 1972 to be exact.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 11:01am EDT

re: 666

666 wrote:
The second main cause of geographically distributed genetic variation is due to non-uniform sampling of a population. The main cause is founder effect, this is the effect of a small group of individuals migrating from a larger group and founding a new population, if the migrating population represents only a small subset of the parental population, then it will not be genetically representative of the parental population (sampling error). Small founding populations are also subject to genetic drift, which may further alter allele frequencies. An example of this is the human migration out of Africa, it has been theorised that the migration out of Africa only represented a small fraction of the genetic variation in East Africa, and that this is the cause of the observed lower levels of diversity in all indigenous non-African humans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_genetic_variation
The only way an American will ever compete with the Africans is to either a: hope that a rare genetic talent tries out and trains properly, or b: institute a national long distance talent search.
Whites are a generic adapted race. Africans are a representation of the physical constraints of humanity. Running just happens to be one of the sports that anyone can try out.

I hate to admit it but when it comes down to it he's right. Outside of a few freaks (Hall, Webb, Flanagan - most AR holders or near it) our top athletes are either African imports or also rans.

Team B Africans run all over our top guys and they have been continually doing this since emerging into the scene. Look at the main pack of championship finals and the gap between them and non-Africans. It's crazy.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 11:08am EDT

re: 666

[quote]666 wrote:

The only way an American will ever compete with the Africans is to either a: hope that a rare genetic talent tries out and trains properly, or b: institute a national long distance talent search.

[quote]

I say we do it like American Idle.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 1:58pm EDT

re: HREyouhavealottolearn

I have and didn't learn anything I didn't already know.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 2:02pm EDT

re: wellnow

Of course it does. All training systems aim to enhance those sorts of things. So what's your point?

Mine is that we need to get moer people running a lot more miles as a starting point. Once they've done that they're better equipped to do the sorts of work that enhances efficiency and stride power.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 2:27pm EDT

re: ChiTown Hustler

Diemer got bronze in '84.

ChiTown Hustler wrote:
no excuses..... wrote:
this disgraceful and embarassing showing by the US, the richest country in the world, with the best training facilities and opportunities to succeed in the world is BROKEN. Time for a completely new system. Any ideas?
Uh.......when's the last time we won an olympic medal in the middle distances. It's been broken for a LLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGGG time.
I believe 1972 to be exact.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 2:46pm EDT

re: A little help please

U.S. Population = 305,000,000

World Population = 6,684,000,000

U.S. Population as a % of World Population = 1/22

# of Medals in Distance Events:

1,500M x 6 Medals (M/W)

3,000MSC x 6 Medals (M/W)

5,000M x 6 Medals (M/W)

10,000 x 6 Medals (M/W)

Maratahon 6 Medals (M/W)

__________________________

30 Medals for Men & Women's Distance Events

Given the U.S. % of the World Population we should be winning, on average, ONE medal in the distance events each Olympics. Want to factor in technology, civilization, training advances, etc? Maybe that gets you another medal or two, but how about some realistic expectations? American ethnocentrism knows no bounds, does it?

..........

Using that same logic the United States should be winning a Basketball and Beach Volleyball medal every 120 years. Nice logic.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 2:47pm EDT

re: HRE

BULLSHIT! if you knew about different types of runners; than you wouldn't insist on Lydiard's training cycle and High Mileage. Instead you come in here to preach high mileage and all the wonders it has done to you and to Lydiard's Olympians.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 3:01pm EDT

re: Blah

Apparently that was Bekele's progression. He moved up one step at a time when he began losing the 100, then the 200,....

15 years ago 08/21/2008 4:09pm EDT

re: yum

I would believe that but I find it hard to believe he was losing when running the 1500m. Maybe he got lazy after moving up to the 800 and said, "Screw it I am going right to the 10" followed by "This jogging for 24 laps and then putting in some weak sprints is way too easy. Why make the effort to be good in the 15"?:)

yum wrote:
Apparently that was Bekele's progression. He moved up one step at a time when he began losing the 100, then the 200,....

15 years ago 08/21/2008 4:18pm EDT

re: bullll

bullll wrote:
BULLSHIT! if you knew about different types of runners; than you wouldn't insist on Lydiard's training cycle and High Mileage. Instead you come in here to preach high mileage and all the wonders it has done to you and to Lydiard's Olympians.

even though I improved under a Lydiard based system in college, from 426 mile to a 407 mile, I would still be the 1st to say that "NOT ONE PROGRAM FITS ALL TYPES OF RUNNERS". We had a good percentage of guys who couldn't take the high mileage and broke down. I trained under the Igloi systeme for a few years after college and the same rule applies. Some people ran better under that system, some people ran worse. You just have to find what works best for YOU.

15 years ago 08/21/2008 5:03pm EDT

re: bullll

I do understand about different types of runners. The asme principles apply to all of them. It's the application that needs adjusting. Lydiard didn't have Snell doing the asme things as Magee or Richard Taylor did. But he did good volume relative to what he could do.

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Time for complete overhaul of 'how to train' US elite distance runners: the system is broken

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