WHAT do I have to do to run a sub 16min 5k?!

Just keep up the training but throw in some speed work and tempo runs. Your track PRs, especially the 800 and mile, clearly indicate that you have more than enough speed, you just need to build up the endurance and strength. Sub 16 is very reasonable for you, and I bet that you will break it in two months. Good luck.

Run 3.1 miles in 15:59.99.

Your Welcome

If those PR's are all recent, and if the courses for the longer ones were fast, then I'd say your relative strength is speed and your relative weakness is endurance. Not that I'm the measure of all things, but just as an example I have run two of those half-marathons back to back, but couldn't run your 5k time and probably couldn't manage that 400 time in my car.

When I have run my best 5k's (16:37 PR), it's been during marathon training. I think you might benefit from doing long runs, up to 20-22 miles with some marathon pace (maybe goal 5k + 1 minute/mile) segments late.

Also, I'd throw in 5k pace [or slightly faster] long intervals -- ex. 5 X 1200 (400 jog), 4 to 5 X 1600 (400 jog), etc.

Pfitzinger and Douglas book Road Racing for Serious Runners has solid plans along these lines, tho I don't think they advocate as long a long run as I'm suggesting.

And yes I think that's a realistic goal. challenging one, but not out of the question given you have almost two months to go, are likely to have more favorable weather for a september race than a july race, and obviously have a lot of speed.

Good luck with your training.

Tell us more about your training. You only tell us about mileage, strides, and occasional hills.

What about long runs, tempos, fartleks, and VO2 max intervals? Any of those in your usual routine?

Thanks for the few of you that gave serious posts, I'm greatly appreciative!

The 16:21 (2 weeks ago) was the only race I've run for the past 4 months, and was run to see where I was fitness-wise.

My long run is only about 12-13 miles. My training started June 2nd and has consisted, basically, of base-building 70-80 min runs. I haven't touched tempos, fartleks, or any intervals yet... I'm not sure WHEN/HOW OFTEN I should be hitting these.

I was looking to do a workout tonight, maybe tempo?

Sorry mate but you'll have to run 15:58.99 since road race times are rounded up.

speaking as someone who actually knows their ass from a hole in the ground, disregard everything that the 430miler useless posted.

Your mileage is right where it should be for a 16-flat guy. Anyone who tells you that you should run less to build up aerobic strength is just flat out wrong.

If that was the case, the best marathoners would be running 20 minutes a day for weeks on end... If that makes sense to you, shut it down.

You might consider some faster work, either in the form of tempo runs or Daniel's cruise intervals (which are basically, broken up tempo runs).

Consider though, that a reasonable peak can net a 3% gain of fitness, which amounts to a 30 second PR for a 5k. You could very easily run sub-16. In fact, you SHOULD very easily be able to run sub-16.

If I were trying to shave 20 to 30 seconds off my 5k time I would increase my mileage during base building to as high as I could tolerate. In this case, 70 to 90 MPW would do, 100 is preferable. Why? Because you are more likely to achieve the gains from the aerobic end. Obviously this takes time but it is the right way to do it since you know you will have covered 100% of the aerobic component of your training and maximized your potential. History is full of examples but the one that comes first to mind is Radcliffe. She took almost 15 seconds off her 5000 PR after 2 years of marathon training and 120 mile weeks.

Yeah I disregarded that post...

I feel like I should be running more than 60mpw maybe.

And what type of tempos should I be looking at? I was going to run 5-6 miles at 6min pace tonight... reasonable? or does it need some tailoring??

THANKS AGAIN!

I would stick at your 50-60 miles a week at this point. Increasing is far more likely to get your injuried or broken down.

I would try to add 1 vo2 max session a week ( 800-1k at 3k pace. 1200-miles at 5k pace). With the vo2 max runs don't try to improve the pace past 5 min/mi. Instead work on reducing the rest interval endurance. Running at race pace in practice should help you feel much better on race day.

I also like 4 mile tempo runs (around 5:40) to get used to running at a sustained pace.

And finally taper the week before the race. Cut down to 30 min a day with a couple days of strides.

Your 5K PR is exactly what mine is, but I did it about 20 years ago. I never broke 16:00, but I had know clue how to train then, and didn't care.

I could always manage a 16:30 or so, on low mileage, but I never did any speed work. I would start local road races with about 5:00 - 5:05, and then I would fall apart.

Listen to all the posters giving you advice on speed work, you need to feel really comfortable at 5:00 min pace and your 2M time seems a little high for that; I could be wrong. Maybe think through your race strategy a little. You should post your splits for your PR race and let the better coaches pick it apart.

This should be good. For the 16:21 my splits were the following (assuming the mile markers were correct):

5:03

10:39 (5:36)

15:45 (5:06) --> yup, had splits at 3m

16:21 (0:36)

Not that it matters too much, but the first mile was flat, second mile was slightly uphill while the third mile was slightly downhill w/ an uphill finish.

Works almost up, then I'm gonna head to the trails and do 5 miles at 6min/mile. Does this sound good? Would mile repeats (4-5 @ 5:05-10) be better, or would either benefit me equally?

You're 2 months out from a huge race and you're still base building? It's definitely time to start the hard track workouts and preferably to race at least every other week. Sharpening up for the race alone should get you under 16. As far as the mileage, just keep it decent (maybe 45-50ish... dunno) and focus on the hard workouts. Your post makes it sound like you are basically retiring from competitive running in 2 months anyway, making mileage even less important since there is no long term to worry about.

The mile repeats sound good but that's a pretty brutal workout. If you can actually do that then save yourself the trouble and just go break 16 right now.

I am not an experienced coach, but I would say you need to be on the track a couple times a week. Most people seem to suggest 400's and 800's as the core of 5K workouts. The 5M trail run should probably be a good moderate run when not doing workouts or recovering. Maybe someone here can give you good advice on target times for your intervals/rest to make sure intensity is right. To your origninal post, you have plenty of time to hit your goal. I would pick up a Pete Pftizinger's "Road Racing for Serious Runners" which has some good workouts in it.

oatmeal wrote:

This should be good. For the 16:21 my splits were the following (assuming the mile markers were correct):

5:03

10:39 (5:36)

15:45 (5:06) --> yup, had splits at 3m

16:21 (0:36)

Not that it matters too much, but the first mile was flat, second mile was slightly uphill while the third mile was slightly downhill w/ an uphill finish.

Works almost up, then I'm gonna head to the trails and do 5 miles at 6min/mile. Does this sound good? Would mile repeats (4-5 @ 5:05-10) be better, or would either benefit me equally?

Well the hills make it hard to figure out how even paced you were but it sounds like you slowed up big for the 2nd mile. But that might just be the hill. Finding a flat course might get you a good chunk of those 21seconds.

Personally I think 5 miles at 6min/mi is a bit of a crap workout. It is slightly too slow/long for a good tempo run for a 5k runner but too fast for any easy run. If you trail is really hilly, the pace might be fast enough. I would either run 4 miles at 5:40 or the mile repeats at 5k pace. If you haven't done long repeats, I would start with 3 and build up to 5. If I wanted to do more work I would through in 4x2-400 at mile pace if I feel I need to work on running at a faster pace.

Looking at you PR's they are very similar to mine (400M: 51, 800M: 1:59, 1500M: 4:06, 3000M: 8:52, 5000M: 15:50) except for the what I assume is your 2 mile time. If I could break 16 then I am sure that you can.

Since the 16:27 was done with minimal speedwork and was your first race then I think you can probably improve 10-20seconds/mi when doing speedwork as long as you do not screw it up by running too much. Drop a couple of these runs in favor of speedwork, add in 1 or two more races, and you should be fine.

For specifics of what speedwork you should do see this article from Joe Rubio and it should lead you in the right direction:

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.aspx?ArticleID=4336

Good luck!

This is really helping, thanks guys.

To clarify: I compete for my university's club xc team in the fall. The only 5k we run is Sept 20th and it's probably the most competitive race outside of nationals (8k). Therefore I'm thinking this will probably be my best shot to hit this time in the next few months. I'll still be running in the races after this (all 8k) and I'd like to perform well in them, but the 15:59 is my main goal.

So that's why I'm still in my base building phase, because I do have a season of xc to look forward to. But I guess I should get my head out of my ass and start some diversification in my training.

I forgot to mention my PR's in 4 miles (21:08, kinda came out of nowhere one day) and 5 miles (27:30) as well, but I'm guessing that won't add too much to the discussion. They were both from when I walked on to a small D1 program 2 years ago. I've been "training" on my own since...

I've run 4:20 1500, 16:04 5k (had almost no splits and felt well enough to have gone significantly faster, but it was a first test 5k coming down from altitude), 21:53 4M enroute to 27:33 5M this year (1st two are track), and so I think that your 21:08 4M should indicate a sub-16 5k on the track. maybe all you need to do is get on the track.

as for what to do, I like the 5:40 tempo idea, but how about adding sub-11 2M repeats on a road with some small hills and maybe some quality 2k repeats on the track, maybe at goal 5k pace?