oops here is the bolg link...
oops here is the bolg link...
I lifted weights for over 2.5 decades. I was no champ,
but did lift in a few olympic lifting meets, especially
as a master (43-44).
I do not have a bone to pick with Mark Reifkind, but
Dragon Door is full of trendy stuff and did in fact
introduce or reintroduce the US with kettleballs.
Do it if you enjoy it, but Pavel and many others on that
site are very similar to that young dude you described
in your first post on this thread.
In it for the money.
You poor thing.Wait till you get to 70+.
It is hardly worth extensive stretching of muscles which never get anywhere near full extension,I agree with you on that.
Keep up the "fast"strides on grass at end of your longer runs,that seems the only time I get any of that feel good.
Running in masters only races in your age group can give you that competitive feeling again since you are racing people of about the same speed,it is chasing the young ones that makes you feel so slow.
sounds like the advice I got from the Norwegian Jackrabbit.
Strides are a good idea, but it's hard to do them on glare ice. Treadmill I suppose.
I picked up The Stick today, so I'll work with that a bit.
The advice on easy days makes sense too. I don't like days off as I actually get stiffer, but maybe XC skiing, biking, would help.
Testosterone? I don't know... I'm already going bald.
I'll check out the Z training idea.
It's not so much the competition "Judy," but just feeling good (looking good would be nice too) and when I see video or real-life images of young runners flying effortlessly over the landscape, just breaks my heart with longing!
Well, I couldn't buy a date at age 16 - 20 because I looked 3-4 years younger. Now it's payback time and I feel great (50 in a few weeks), even though I can't run the times I did 20 years ago (have slowed about 10-12%).
Secrets? I cross train 6 mo of the year, xc skiing which saves a lot of pounding when conditions are marginal anyway. When running, I focus more on threshold training, trail runs, and hill runs and use races as speed work. Nevertheless, I run 50 - 70 mpw during summer and still enjoy racing and running.
Core strength training, and doing just enough speedwork to get by have worked as well. I run about a mile's worth of fast stuff a week (eg., mile pace) and usually only 1.5 to 2.5 miles of Vo2 max effort (unless it's uphill). Everything else is pretty easy and aerobic.
I'm 63 and I've been running for 50 years so I know how you feel. It was interesting to read all the suggestions. I agree with you on stretching. I stopped stretching in 1976 and I haven't been injured since. Lydiard pointed out that Snell and Halberg had 4 Olympic gold medals between them and neither of them could touch their toes.
It sounds like you need some inspiration from runners in your own age group. Here is a list of world records by age group:
I look at it as to what can be done with the proper attitude and training. Get a model runner in your age group that you can look up to. Mine is Ed Whitlock although he is about 13 years older than I am. Find out what your hero does and try to do that.
Your times indicate that you are running better than a lot of men half your age. Check out your performances on an age graded basis and I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. Science realizes that we slow as we age and has given us old timers a break. The glass is half full, not half empty.
My legs also hurt more now than when I first started running a half century ago. I cant repeat my fast times of long ago but I still have plenty of fun training and racing including meeting new friends and conquering new challenges.
There really is no way to cheat father time in the long run but it sure is a lot of fun trying. Good luck.
He has many different dvds.....there is one on balance training, there are ones on speed training....lots of stuff. It is interesting because it is from the athlete's point of view. I do like his stuff alot, he explains things well and gives lots of examples. You may even want to check out your local library, I have seen his dvds there as well.
There are also books and dvds on strength ball training or even using stability balls that work on balance and joint mobility as well.
And even getting into the water and doing stuff help. Mat Pilates can help as well.
I do agree that the Egoscue stuff from his books is time consuming, but I was talking more about the active stuff that he does as well....if you are familiar with that.
It all boils down to be able to learn how to work through your ROM and getting some more flexibility.
I am also 50, but have been working with this kind of stuff for so long that I have been able to stay on top of it, which is lucky for me. As I got older, I did realize the importance of staying limber, and without actually putting a name to it, was able to develop programs for other people to help them with these very things. I work with people all the way from athletes training to someone who is rehabbing a hip or knee replacement, so I get some interesting feedback. But what all of these dvds and books basically say is "If you don't use it, you lose it" So keep using it!
I am the Oprah of weightlifting. As big and slow as she is at running a marathon, I have always been skinny and weak with upper body strength. So starting kettlebells at least interests me as the momment as it is enjoyable and for me the gains are coming along quickly because I started as a beginner. I recognize Pavel's stuff as a bunch of money grabbing in one regard but at least it gives me a start and means of trying to understand a different philosophy of training.
I don't know much about Mark Reifkind at all except his Dvd was looking interesting because I though I must be doing foam rollers wrong as they helped me feel better at times I never could get it to really alter anything system wide. I never ordered the DVD. It could be very good.
I always had an awkward stride while running but I jumped whole hog into triathlons after watching Julie Moss's crawl back in the early 80's and went for it with no coaching or knowledge of swimming or biking. I did my first Ironman distance triathlon by the end of that same year. I raced for 5 years doing an Ironman distance race every year with no stretching, weight training, chiro, coaching, or anything at all except swim, bike, and run and although I did pretty good with 3 times in the low 10:20's I could barely stand straight after 3 years of that. I was adjusting my back every 20 minutes daily and thought I was destined for a wheelchair within years. I was never fit to a bike and twisted my saddle to one side a bit to accomodate my hips and angled one pedal out for my splaying foot. I made a mess out of myself that I have been trying to correct ever since. And thinking to myself with my poor self fit to the bike I am sure, now, that I stessed my joints and they got used to working in a awkward manner and a pattern that I still follow to this day in all activities. Maybe that is why these joint exercises are helping me so much and so quickly as my joints are being reeducated in the proper movement pattern. Only time will tell. Anyhow I had an awesome and easy 10 mile run today and my muscles feel just as loose and free as when I started.
I frequently check age-graded tables and that, but as I said above, I care less about times, and more about just feeling good running. Pain...stiffness...3 foot stride...sick of it.
you must be referring to the Patch stuff with the Egoscue program. They send me emails about that but I am not really familiar with it except it looks really challenging and you would need good coordination and mobility and I am surely not there yet!
If 2 days of non impact xtrng leaves you stiff you probably got some serious muscle damage.Running tears muscle more than other endurance activities because of the severe eccentric lengthening of fibers from impact forces.
Here is what I would do and have done successfully
quit running and start walking
Do as many long walks 3+ hours on hilly terrain as you can
Four months long brisk hilly walks and your legs will be good as new.You work the muscles which pumps the healing and life giving blood thru them.Your mitochondria will become fat burning monsters and you will feel like superman
Also if you want to do some aqua jogging that is find as well but do zero impact type activities this will heal your legs while keeping good muscle tone and aerobic health
My advice is from first hand experience.Now I have not been as damaged as it sound like you are but I have overcome some pretty serious leg issues to run 16:45 5000 2 months before turning 50 on 20mpw.Right now I am in 17:30 shape but am not racing.My enjoyment comes from the feeling of running hard besides racing only remind me of how slow I am getting.
The other advice is also very good any ROM or cross friction should help but the long walks and patience can work miracles.
Thanks for starting such an excellent thread.
Your theory about losing the ability to "play" is correct...I think. Also, I believe you can recover a lot of that bounce and good feeling while running....and you can do it very quickly.....even at 50+.
I'm just a couple of years younger than you and have also been running "seriously" for over 30 years. I also found traditional stretching to be a waste of time. It seems we are looking for mobility, agility, balance, quickness etc..... a lot more than flexibility.
Here are some things that have worked for me......recently I might add:
- Circuit training - 2-3 x per week (15-20mins per workout) consisting of;
1) Jump rope - a minute or two
2) Pull-ups - 3 sets
3) Lunges and/or one-leg squats - doing more as I've become stronger - just do them until I'm tired
4) Heavy Bag - 2x3mins
5) Leg swings, standing on one foot, bent leg & straight leg.
6) Other - as inspired - usually a few agility type drills - nothing to fancy.
The jump rope gives me a little pop. It's gentle plyometrics. The pull-ups provide core and upper body strength. The lunges/one leg squats give have provided power and increased functional stride length. The heavy bag has helped me feel young and athletic.....might be loosening up my spine a little. And the leg swings are for balance and mobility.
Warning: Lunges need to be introduced with extreme caution....little by little. I learned this the hard way....several times.
- A stride/sprint workout. On a recovery day.....instead of plodding out an easy 5-6mi....go to track, warm-up really easy for 5-10 mins. Then begin doing strides....15-20secs. Start easy and let the pace pick up naturally. And here was the key for me.....take a long recovery...at least a minute...longer if necessary. In other words, you are barely taxing your endurance. I like doing over 30 strides. If I am not feeling more fluid and younger by the end of the workout then I've screwed it up somehow.
- Once you've done those lunges and strides for several weeks, running hills at a strong effort is possible and helpful.
- I've found activites like basketball, tennis, racquet ball, dance all very helpful and restorative. Although sometimes I need a few weeks of gentle preparation so that I can even participate in these activities.
These are just a few things that have worked for me. They worked very quickly because I think a lot of the improvement was neural.
I'm sure there are infinite methods for getting a little youthful feeling back. More than anything, what has helped me is to start thinking less like a runner and more like and athlete...at least temporarily. It's almost like you have to pretend you need to get yourself in shape for a soccer match or a boxing match or seal training or whatever captures your imagination.
And then, of course, you need a lot of variety in your training - both in terms of pace and distance. And, many have said, it is vital you separate your harder days by plenty of recovery workouts.
Hope some of this is useful. Have really enjoyed reading what others have to say.
All the best....
Hey TDF, I really don't have the funds to buy this z stuff right now but as much as you like to type how about telling me some of those moves for the knee. My right knee has arthritis in it and is stiff at times...I can tell my right leg is weaker than my left and I'm not in alot of pain but this is holding me back. I'm 46 and have been strength training my legs some but my right one still feels weaker. Is there anything that you have learned that you can tell me that might help. Thanks if you can
I see runners plodding around with the same training they've been doing for decades, only much slower, and they wonder why nothing feels as good. Beatin' on the pavement, grinding on the track. Wear and tear might be extracting it's toll-
Get on the learning curve and shake up your training. Do what you haven't been doing to balance out your body, your mind and your life. Become a beginner again, admit what you don't know and what you are afraid to do and then get after it. I tell guys my age that I take naps and drink a gallon of fluids/day to enhance my life and my training, and they look at me like I'm talking in Swahili or something. They have lost the ability to experiment and learn about their bodies and minds on a fundamental level.
Pretty soon we'll be dead- make sure it is with a smile on your face for all the good times and good feelings you had.
Today: 24 x 100 @ 800/400 cadence. A little rugged the first few, but worked out the kinks,and felt 21 on the last 10 or so (I'm 51 now). Thirty five years of it and this might be one of my best.
Cheers and smilin' miles, NoS
I am not sure how these are targeted for specific injuries per se. I think they have trained people you can go to that can tell you what specific execises may help you individually. I guess if you think of the whole body as interconnected what may be hurting one part may not even originate in that part. I think when I had ART done or chiro they looked at one part not the whole body so something was always missing. When I did Rolfing and a whole session was done on my shoulders I noticed how that had a strong positive impact on my hips. The exercises are for all the joints so you go from feet to head. I am not sure which are doing the most work for me. So ankle or hip work may affect the knee. That being said. A knee routine looks like this: Stand tall, heels pressing to floor, crown of head pressing up. Lift one knee off the floor in front of you. Keep the lower leg loose and using the hip swing the foot and lower leg quickly around in circles underneath the knee. Do a few times then repeat direction. I can do this easily on my right side but am uncoordinated and can't make a good rotation yet on my left. Keep in mind that I am not sure isolating one exercise can free up what needs to be freed up in your body, but that is a taste of one of the routines. By the way all of the exercises are done while standing.
More good advice...thanks.
-Many of you are recommending the 15-30 second strides. I think they really make sense too.
-the walking regime appeals to the Charles Dickens and Paavo Nurmi in me. But I'm sure the old lady would resent my being gone walking a couple hours+ a day.
--I like the circuit training advice. A bit like play. Maybe we should all just start playing freeze tag again. Intervals for kids.
--How many of you rely on regular massage to keep you on the roads? I find it hard to justify the cost, but recognize that it helps.
In my mid-30's I did a LOT of multi-sport stuff because running hurt (hams, etc.) Depending on the season--XC skiing, bike racing, roller-skiing, indoor rowing, as well as running.
Then, at 40, cut out all but running. I had a great year, (49:29 15k, 2:31 Mar.) It seemed that the cross-training set me up nicely to be a really strong, flexible runner. Now after 13 years of just running I've last that advantage.
I wonder if any of the 18year olds will read this post!
I am 50+ as well and seldom feel that relaxed floating feeling. However, I do get it when I run fast intervals. I think real speed work is very helpful for all masters. In particular, it helps redefine form and rhythm, plus maintains muscle. I am and always will be a middle distance runner, so this may not be relevant to the 10k and up group, but I feel like a runner when I run something like 5x300 at 800/1500 pace. I take a longer rest than I used to and run fairly close to max. If you close your eyes, you can almost hear the coach shout"39,40" as you finish.
18 year olds don't believe that you can still run when you're over 50. I know I didn't. I remember observing that "some old guy won the race; he was like 27!"
Nowadays it's not uncommon to have 5 age groups represented in the top 10 of a given race.
My buddy The Norwegian Jackrabbit has a gray ponytail halfway down to his skinny ass, and still finishes ahead of most hs runners. Gets a lot of strange looks too.
Anyway, to your speedwork comment. I agree, and love the feel of an indoor track this time of year. We're not in Canada, but above the 47th Parallel!
Unfortunately I'm nursing a high hamstring strain and doing the fun stuff agravates it.
This is a great thread. I am 53 and can relate to losing that free feeling of smoothly gliding when running.
I know speed work is important for seniors but it is dam risky. Even when I feel like I'm running controlled intervals afterwards I seem to become vulnerable to injury. I had meniscus surgery at age 50 and really don't want to repeat that course. I feel much of the tightness and soreness after runs that remind me of the time before my previous injury.
Stretching seems to be an exercise in futility. About 6 months ago I was running strong and the last thing I wanted to read about were the injury stories but now I'm checking the knee posts.
I'm 57 and added masters' swimming to my training a few years ago, with pretty good results.
I've never been especially fast, but I was running 5k's in the low 20s in my early to mid forties. Then along came injury after injury added to a season of flu that was followed by a couple of chronic sinus infections--and then more injuries. I have to admit running often didn't feel especially good, yet I couldn't not do it. Most of the cross-training I did wasn't that satisfying, although spin classes with the right instructor could come close.
Then I joined a masters' swim group out of curiosity, loved it--yet never much cared for straight lap swimming... much preferred the adrenaline rush of pushing myself. I'd sometimes follow the swim workouts almost back to back with running interval workouts--I actually ran these faster and felt better during them than the ones that weren't preceded by swimming. (Haven't had that kind of time lately, but still keep swimming workouts in the rotation.)
The first year I did masters' swimming, I entered an aquathlon: 1/4 mile swim, 5k run, and I felt better and did better in that run than in a lot of stand-alone 5k's. (The swim was so-so speedwise, but I pretty much wasn't that worried about the swim part of the race.)
Problem with swimming, of course, is that it involves limited time when a pool is available, schlepping stuff to the pool and back, etc., while I love the simplicity and freedom of running... stepping out the door and taking off. Yet swimming makes for a more varied week of workouts and a different kind of challenge. Also, when I swim easy for even just a half hour later in the day of a longer race or run, the next day it's as if I'd taken a day off instead of doing a 2-hour run.