Who is/was better in high school/teen years: Rupp or Fernandez?

This Fernandez kid underwent knee surgery last year....that's why he wasn't a FL national quailifer.

As a sophomore, he beat AJ Acosta at state (the were in different divisions). Michael Coe (2nd at FL) won the race with Fernandez placing 10 seconds behind. In the other division Acosta placed 1 second behind.

This kid is fast, we all know that. It will be cool to see what he does at FL and in track. It makes it even more fun b/c he is "new" on the elite level....as most of us haven't heard of him before this.

this is for desertrunner.. just so you know, Germans course was not golfcourse smooth, not at all actually. It has "killer hill" and the rest of the course consists of smaller rolling hills. The whole course is basically on dirt except for the first and last 150 meters or so. Its about 40 seconds slower than a track

desertrunner wrote:

Ritz would have owned both of them. While Fernandez's 14:24 is an awesome time, he ran 4:22, then what? 4:50 per mile for the next 2? I was at the Michigan xc champs when Ritz went 14:10, for his state xc championship, he got faster as the race went on, and it was shit cold, crappy Michigan weather, not a golfcourse smooth, course like Fernandez had. All 3 are amazing, but I put it like this

1) Ritz

2) Rupp- by about 15-18 seconds

3) Fernandez- about 40 behind Ritz.

Anyone know what Fernandez has run for the 3200? Ritz and Rupp were both well under 9:00. Ritz was 8:46 or something like that I believe..

I think you forgot that he ran 5K, maybe 30 seconds longer than 3 miles. He went past 3 miles in 13:55, and his 2 mile split was 9:12. So while he hit the 2nd mile in 4:50 (including a monster hill) his 3rd mile was a 4:33 and that had a gradual uphill stretch in it. And he wasn't kicking into 3 miles, he still had 0.1 to go. The first mile of that course is the fastest mile because it has the most flat and downhill running with open stretches.

Regarding Rupp and Ritz, I'm guessing Rupp came through 3200 around Ritz's 8:46 split en route to completing his 13:37 5K. While Ritz was phenomenal, he certainly didn't do what Rupp did on the track, and it is possible that German could do what Ritz did in cross country. Ritz's training base and quality may have been 4 x's better than German's over the past 3 years. If German can dust the CR's at Mt. Sac and in San Diego than he's gonna get my vote for the best in high school cross. It will need to be a spanking of the current CR's though, no 1 or 2 second love pats. I would also expect German to obliterate 9:00 this spring if he stays healthy. 8:40 should be the barrier he's aiming for.

8:36 is the time he is aiming for. You don't come so close to 8:36 and think of only 8:40. Someone has got to take that time down.

the thing about Rupp and his 5k HS record, was it was in the summer after he graduated, in a rabbit lead race in europe. There was a thread somewhere about the rabbit in that race I believe. When Ritz ran his 14:10 it was the fall of his senior year, with nobody within 30 seconds of him. That 8:46ish was spring of his senior year, in a HS meet, in Michigan, by himself, without pacers or Nike whisking him off to Europe to race. Just so it is clarified, I think they are all amazing, but you put Ritz on that course his senior yr, with conditions that fast, when he was peaking, and he runs 13:45 on it, with even splits most likely, instead of the 14:10 he ran in Michigan. there was several hills on the Michigan course,lots of gradual rolls, long grass, some mud in corners.

anonymous wrote:

this is for desertrunner.. just so you know, Germans course was not golfcourse smooth, not at all actually. It has "killer hill" and the rest of the course consists of smaller rolling hills. The whole course is basically on dirt except for the first and last 150 meters or so. Its about 40 seconds slower than a track

All I am saying is there is no way it is 40 seconds slow, that means he ran 4:10 for his 1st mile, I would give it 5-6 seconds per mile probably, and dirt is not wet long grass.

mile 1 was 4:22, next was 4:50 (9:12) then 4:33 (13:55) and 29 seconds for the last 0.1. the first mile is fast because geographicaly it's the easiest and you have a massive start line all trying to get out before a sharp funnel. second mile was a lot slower but it has a hill that puts a knife in your pace. he said himself that he felt like qutting at 2 miles. he then chopped 17 seconds off that mile pace in the third, which is really the 2nd easiest mile on the course. it makes perfect sense, he may have felt sorry for himself for about 30 seconds on the 2nd mile and then snapped out of it. pretty easy to understand if know that the second mile he was all alone w/ very few spectators to help him and the hill, and he went out in 4:22. after all he's a high school kid and a greenhorn at that.

desertrunner wrote:

anonymous wrote: this is for desertrunner.. just so you know, Germans course was not golfcourse smooth, not at all actually. It has "killer hill" and the rest of the course consists of smaller rolling hills. The whole course is basically on dirt except for the first and last 150 meters or so. Its about 40 seconds slower than a track

All I am saying is there is no way it is 40 seconds slow, that means he ran 4:10 for his 1st mile, I would give it 5-6 seconds per mile probably, and dirt is not wet long grass.

PACIFIC 10 BREWCO. wrote:

This is true. And Rupp outkicked Kiptoo in that same race. Didn't both Withrow and Kiptoo finish top 14 at NCAA cross as freshman (Withrow was 9th as a redshirt freshmen but still).

The 2003-04 field included.

1st - Withrow - 13:35 as a Frosh in college (albeit he was redshirting)

2nd - Rupp - 13:37, 4:01, 8:03 3k

3rd - Kiptoo - 4:02 mile, 8:45 2mi, 14th at NCAA's as a true Frosh

4th - McDougal - 8:08 3k, 14:12, 13th at NCAA's as a true Frosh

Plus I believe at least a few others who broke 8:50 that year.

HE DID NOT GO OUT IN 4:22!

Yes, I know he said it in his interview but if you watch the video you can clearly see the clock reading 4:27-29 as he comes by. I was there also and I had him at 4:29. I think he might have looked up at 4:22 when he was not actually at the mile mark.

guide dogs for the swift wrote:

So far, I agree with the consensus that Fernandez is/was better at XC, and Rupp was a lot better at track. Of course, Fernandez has time to change that-- there's still Footlocker to come. He could also close the gap on Rupp on the track. I don't expect him to match Rupp's accomplishments, but an 8:5x two mile and a sub-14 5K seem likely. That would be a pretty phenomenal high school career.

You do realize that you would have to split an 8:5x to run an equal paced sub 14 right?

freedom4ever wrote:

Rupp has the smashed the national highschool 5000 meter record by an astonishing 7 seconds.

isn't this a quote from 'without limits' with rupp/5000 substituted for pre/3200...?

I think that it is not really a fair comparison to make between Ritz, German, and Rupp as far as track goes.

I'll preface this by saying that I coach in the same league as German, so I have seen him run since he was a freshman. I don't know if his coaches or teammates come on letsrun (they do post on dyestatcal periodically) so I will try to dispell a few myths.

1. German did not start running competitively until spring of his freshman year. He ran a 4:32 after 4 weeks of training and topped out at 4:21 for the season. That has been his only full track season so far.

2. German did not run during the summer before his sophomore CC campaign. He didn't think that Riverbanks was going to have enough guys to field a full team, so he wanted to play soccer and be part of an actual team. Coach Edwards convinced him to run cross just prior to the season. He did not exceed 35 mpw that season and ran 15:14 at Woodward park for a D4 state title.

3. German's love of team sports got the better of him. He tore the meniscus in his knee playing on the JV basketball team as a sophomore. The injury was misdiagnosed as strained ligaments. He tried to run on the knee. After the b ball injury, he took 6 weeks off then trained for track for 3 weeks and opened his season with a 4:21 1600. His splits were 2:04-2:17. His knee got worse and worse throughout the season. He mostly trained on a bicycle during that time, but I don't know how seriously he really took it. At our league meet in May, he won all 3 distance events off of basically no running training and helped his team win the league title by one point. He had surgery the next week to repair his meniscus.

4. He didn't start running again until mid October. After 6 weeks of training, he ran second to Chad Hall with a 15:37 at Woodward. During this phase, it seems that he began to realize what he had in himself. It seemed that he was beginning to think of himself as a runner, rather than a guy that runs. After state, he and his coaches decided to end the racing season and not pursue footlocker. He pretty much just started training through. That February, he did his 4:05 1500 followed by a 1:09 half marathon the next day (there is a post on here somewhere about that. It was supposed to be a long tempo at 6 min pace but after the first mile he decided to race). That race beat his legs up pretty bad. Shortly there after, outdoor track started here in California. He was put into some sprint medley's and 4x4 relays at early invitationals. At this point, he developed a tear in the muscle behind his tibia. This pretty much sidelined him for the competitive season. He tried to run some races on it through march, but couldn't do it. He cross trained through late march and all of April, retuning to running in early may.

5. At our 2006 league meet, German had been back to running for a little bit over a week. He won all 3 distance events again, but looked pretty bad doing it (4:28ish, 10:07, 2:00). The next week at our small schools section meet, he doubled in the 1600 and 3200 going 4:17 and 9:32. The next week at the section masters meet, he ran only the 3200, winning in 9:11. The following week at state he ran 9:08 and the following week, he ran Golden West, clocking 4:13 for a full mile (4:11 1600 conversion).

6. During the summer, he ran mostly easy mileage, with one moderate "workout" per week. This was his first true "base building" of his career. I think that the rest of his story is fairly familiar by now to people that have been paying attention.

As I stated at the beginning of the post, I don't think it is fair to compare German to these other guys in track yet, because he hasn't run a full season since spring of 2005

After reading that, it really makes me think he should go to Oregon or somewhere that has anti-gravity treadmills. He seems to be injured a majority of the time much like the runner from Oregon in the 90's Matt Davis.

He got 3rd at footlocker to Goucher and Meb beating out Olympian Brad Hauser and Kip Keino's son Bob after he had only trained about 20% of the month leading up to the race due to some injury shortly after his state meet. He did a similar thing his 3rd year in college and placed 5th at NCAA cross, but that was all you really heard about him because he was injured most of the time or was barely training (He would have benefitted from one of the anti-gravity treadmills as well).

It doesn't really matter how talented you are if you can't stay healthy at least 80% of the year.

If he ran 4:22, then 4:50 that is 9:12 yes. But 4:33 plus 9:12 last time I looked is not 13:55 but rather 12 plus 33 is 45 seconds and 4 + 9 is 13 for a total time of 13:45 through 3 miles. Not that this matters but if your going to talk about his splits at least use mile times that add up.

huh?????? wrote:

um if ritz is 40 seconds ahead of fernandez does that mean ritz would have run 13:44?

funny you mention that number since ritz ran that on the track in HS.

I say ritz is better, but not 40 seconds worth. Come on that is absurd.

Also what has fernandez run besides one good race. I'm not saying he hasn't run anything good, but this is all I know about him and he wasn't even close to winning FL last year.

this is true but isn't someone who is a great runner also have the strength to stay healthy?

just guessing wrote:

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this is true but isn't someone who is a great runner also have the strength to stay healthy?

Yes. He does need to stay healthy. The first injury was non running related and does not seem to have bothered him since surgery.

The second injury was a result of ramping up the mileage to quickly and then jumping into some races that were just too fast for him at that point (400s and 800s)

Who's to say that Fernandez is not just another Franklin Sanchez? Nothing wrong with that, but one race does not a runner make.

Leirbag wrote:

Who's to say that Fernandez is not just another Franklin Sanchez? Nothing wrong with that, but one race does not a runner make.

Nothing says that he is not another Sanchez.

However, he has been putting up good times all year. He opened the season in August with a 14:06 for a flat 2.96 miles in 90+ degree temps.

He has a bit more than one race under his belt.