What if Meb or Culpepper break the marathon record in debut?

Y didnt Salazar's records at chicago, i belive he ran in the low 2:08's a few time, but he didnt get the american record? He ran in the olympics for the US too. WTF is the deal?

bottom line is that the government defines what an american is, and by that standard he is an american, and we should be pretty damn thankful since he is our only real chance for a medal above 400m. the issue is whether having an american hold the wr and beat geb and what's his name validates the american system or the ability of this country to produce a great distance runner, and obviously it does not, because he was born, raised and trained in morocco, and it is not exactly a great shock to the world to have a great moroccan-born runner. (nor is it a shock to have a moroccan born runner test positive for drugs, but that's another story, brahim). denmark does not take credit for the development of wilson kipketer, nor slovenia take credit for merlene ottey, and the u.s. has very little to do with kk's greatness. so, basically, people (mostly racists, but not all) want to see american born distance runners challenge african born runners.

Bill Burke,

If you agree that KK is American and that his record is righfully the American Record, then you and I have no beef. My comment was not to you but to the person who so adamantly denied KK the American record. While you have a few good points, my response was about the poster who mentioned that until he saw KK in a Boy Scout uniform or a little league uniform that he wouldn't consider KK as having the American record. When can you start calling yourself an American? What if you come to America when you are 2 days old? Is that too late? How about if you come here when you are 5? How about 15? At what age can someone come here, do all the proper things necessary to become an American citizen, and then not be called out for it every time? What if someone moves here from Morroco and then has a kid who is from birth an American citizen, and that kid who has always been here even though his parents were born in Morocco and started out as Moroccan citizens becomes a world record and american record holder?

My point is that there has to be a line somewhere, and that line should simply be whether you hold American citizenship or not. Again, I know you believe that KK is the rightful holder of the AR. This is my explanation of my point which was made in a much briefer way to "american".

Lots of things go into being a racist. Some of it is simply race, but some of it is culture, and almost all the time, the racist part comes about because the person is a color other than white. And I'm not saying that non-white people can't be racist.

This poster did not just "take note" of a different culture. He flatly denied KK as the rightful American Record holder. What is his beef with KK other than race? He can't find a way to take Montgomery's WR from him because there is no appropriate way to do that, and yes, I think that many people have racist attitudes against certain races that might not necessarily include black people.

Just because the Kenyans might not accept Mo Greene as the rightful Kenyan record holder in the situation you proposed doesn't make it right, and just because that would be a racist attitude, doesn't make the attitude against KK any less racist.

My assertions are neither childish nor foolish. You and I have a different opinion. I think yours is the wrong one. I'm sorry that you had to resort to calling me childish, because you were doing OK without that. As it is, your point went down a notch.

....basically, people....want to see american born distance runners challenge african born runners.

--jones

Nothing wrong with that thought is there? Isn't that alot of the popularity of the OGames (us against them, teams...Yanks Vs Boston, stuff like that...etc)? Isn't it like having hired guns, thugs......instead of taking care of business with the folks in your own family?

Does Denmark feel tons of joy when WKipketer breaks records & wins races across the globe? If they don't feel the joy in great quanity does that qualify them as racists, as you call them?

Think about it over by there....jones & others.

Salazar didn't run Chicago. He ran New York, Boston, Fukuoka, and the Olympic Marathon. He always ran relatively well, but his fastest times were at New York and Boston. Joan Benoit was the one that ran Chicago, so that may be what is confusing you.

[quote]waz wrote:

you are just so blind, don't you see what you are saying, those sweeping generalisations are the exact cause of the problems with the US.

If you're saying the U.S. caused the terrorist attacks on the country by an overarching attitude towards foreigners, you're wrong.

De Rueck hasn't broken any world records so the point is moot. Don't assume what I would think about it because you don't know. I would hold her to the same standard as KK. She chose to move here as an adult~that is different from Meb who emmigrated with his parents to escape persecution.

So, is it whether or not a person comes here to escape persecution or is it how old the person is when they come here?

If so, at what age (i.e. how young) can a person come here without getting your critical eye?

If the person were persecuted, do they just get to say so, or is there a standard that is adhered to which determines whether or not persecution took place? Does persecution in your opinion include religious, physical, political? Which?

You know when you paint a floor you are supposed to leave yourself a way out. What's yours?

Obvious Man...

...I don;t know where you got the first name Bill, the BC stands for Boston College and my name is not Bill :) ...

My oppologies if you were offended by my remaks, but again I think it innapropriate to use the race card here. There is no 'American Race' nor a 'Moroccan Race'. I think that the objection to foreigners emigrating and holding American Records has very little to do with skin color, at least overtly. I think if an athlete grew up, trained, and became a product of another country such as New Zealand or Ireland and then emigrated to the US he or she would recieve similar scrutiny.

To illustrate this point I pointed out that a black American athlete might recieve this same scrutiny in a predominantly black nation of Africa such as Kenya, and I do not think it would be racist, or necessarily impropper for many people in Kenya to have a hard time letting go of records (even if they were poor sprint records) to an athlete born, raised, and produced by the US.

Although I think that the 'boyscout' comment was a rather innapropriate and insensitive comment to make, I still believe that this has nothing to do with racism. There are plenty of black and Asian boyscouts (though admittedly in lesser proportions).

Although the poster was rather rude and blatant in his language, he raised a good point that people's enthusiasm towards American athletes may indeed come from their ability to indentify with them and knowing that they are a product of American society and training methods.

Again, I do not necessarily have qualms as such these...meeting and running with Meb was one of the hilights of my college running experience thus far and I think his experience and cultural background as an Eritrian make him all the more interesting and add diversity to our American Team, but I can still identify with the other side.

Regards

Ryan Burke

The way out is simple- It is my OPINION. I just think the record is different-I view it differently. I judge each person on an individual basis. You know what the great thing about an opinion or a personal feeling is? It is that they are your own and they don't always have to be grounded in rules and protocal. I can't identify with the guy, sorry. I don't hate him or wish him ill. I might even root for him-if he puts together a better effort than he did in Edmonton-unless an American born and raised runner is on his shoulder. That is my choice and I am not asking you to think the same thing.

BurkeBC,

Just took a gamble on the Bill Burke thing because I know of someone with that name who has views that you just espoused.

You did much better that time than the first. Actually worthy of debate. You made some good points, and you did it without name calling, which only strengthens your position. So good job there Boston College fellow.

By saying this though "I think that the objection to foreigners emigrating and holding American Records has very little to do with skin color, at least overtly", when you say "at least overtly" you are keeping open the possibility that objection to foreigners emigrating and holding American Records "might" have something to do with skin color. Keep that opinion going, and you've got something there.

And, just so you know, Meb is "Eritrean", not "Eritrian" as you said; just in case you write him a letter or anything.

Keep on growing.

So you can identify equally with someone from the United States who grew up in the projects as well as you can identify with someone who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth and grew up being raised by butlers and servants? You can as easily identify with surfer dudes and southern belles and farm boys. You can identify with eskimos and native americans who grew up on reservations. You can identify with native Hawaiians. You can identify with someone from the UP in Michigan who sounds very much like a Canadian and thinks that 40 below in the winter is on the warm side.

You can identify with people from the East Coast who say "schlepp" and people who call each other "bastard" as a term of endearment. You identify with people in some parts of the south who use the term "antigoggin" to mean "diagonal" and you can identify with people in North Carolina who speak Gullah. You can identify with Dan Rather even though he grew up in Texas and had to learn to speak like he was from Mechanicsburg, Ohio. You can identify with all these very different kinds of people from all walks of like and yet you have no room to identify with the person who loved the United States so much that they chose to come here over any other country in the world?

Ok then. Good point. I guess you win.

If only it were possible to see into their heads, one could make a judgement as to what they truly believe, but so long as they don't bring up the issue of skin color I am unable to accuse someone of being racist. Overly patriotic or nationalistic? Certainly. Patriotism is a double edged sword in that manner, great to unite but also harsh in its exclusivity.

I do not claim to be able to set a standard as to at what point one can comfortably consider an athlete as a propper part of the American track and field tradition, but I do not necessarily think that it ends with a US citizenship, though certainly begins there. Having been privileged to meet Meb I would argue until I was blue in the face that his blood is as American as anyone with the a last name ending in 'FFV' but I think I would be uneasy with the idea of many foreign-developed and recognized athletes (eg El G) emigrating to the US in their prime and establishing records or achievements as an American athlete. Fortunately for my conscience this is not the case with either KK or Meb and it makes my open armed acceptance easy and natural.

So long as El G or Lagat does not expatriate, my foundations will remain unshaken.

EritrEan Americans forever

Ryan

Ok. You should have stopped before though, because your last post was way better. This last one of yours didn't really say much.

Again, you aren't all that far off the right track. And once again, my original response was to "american". He has yet to explain himself in a way that isn't right out of the "How to convince people you aren't a racist" handbook. I surprised he hasn't told me that he has many black friends.

He has yet to explain himself in a way that isn't right out of the "How to convince people you aren't a racist" handbook. I surprised he hasn't told me that he has many black friends.

------------------------

Haha you bring up a good point. I agree with you but be cautious, because there is another handbook, 'How to Win a Debate for Dummies'...1.compare your opposition to Hitler, 2. call them a racist/sexist/anti-Semite etc 3. (my folly here) resort to repetition and name-calling

Pretty funny there Burke.