Old time Boston Marathon?

Tom Derderian will probably be able to answer correctly but I seem to recall water was introduced after Jerome Drayton trashed the BAA following his win in '77.

My son took Tom's book to his dorm so I can't look it up.

Tom will know.

I first ran Boston in 1962. Gatorade had not been heard of and there were no gels. Only the leader got any splits at all. There were probably less than 10 marathons on the continent. We took in nothing during training and many races started under the noonday sun. There were no men under 21 nor were there women, walkers or 5 hour completion times that I remember. Also, there have been marathons with brutal heat since the marathon first began.

Orville,

You've been running since the time when only runners entered marathons. The BS these days must really irritate you.

I was very lucky to have run when I did. Now, a runner with limited talent, must have a whole different reason to run. I was able to hang with the leaders in many races. In addition it was my hobby. I would not have thrived now. And I do not like crowds. I had great fun!

I have trouble when pondering whether professionalism has helped or hurt the sport. I guess I must say there are great pros and cons in regards to that answer.

I can recall races in the '50's and '60's in the Bay Area, including at least one marathon, where we were told BY THE OFFICIALS that taking water during the race would result in disqualification. It was defined as "accepting aid from spectators" and of course the officials weren't going to do anything helpful like providing "official" water.

Mile markers? Splits along the course? Not a chance. The closest was on out-and-back courses, where one might encounter someone with a stopwatch at the turn-around. Even when we began to see markers and hear split times, chances were that they were inaccurate and misleading.

Race-entry fields were so small that even in urban areas nobody bothered to provide police protection and auto traffic control. You come to a red light - Stop. Proceed only when the light turns green....etc.

In the beginning each runner had an attendant on a bicycle. Later when that became impractical runners stationed their helpers along the route, if they wished, to supply water or sponges.(or other stuff.) Sometime people took it upon themselves to supply water to all the passing runners. Sometimes residents along the route offered water. Some times they didn't. But no race official water stops appeared until after 1977. But when any drink other than water was offered,or whether some "ade" drink was official, I don't know.

I can't be sure about official mile makers either. I suppose there may be a record of the BAA purchasing 26 mile markers or when they painted the marks on the road, but I haven't asked that question.

I would not expect to find such documentation. I certainly can't trust my memory or anyone else's. I suspect the process was gradual and at first unofficially official.

Such is the murk of history.

Tom

The mile was invented in 1957 it couldn't have been before that.

I think Boston was first certified with mile marks/splits in the mid 80's - measured by Bill Noel and David Katz

This relates to a question I asked some time ago: Are splits still taken at the old train stations? Ashland, Natick etc. What are the records for those?

I ask because I think things like that intensified the aura surrounding the Boston Marathon. I think the race has lost its unquestioned place as the preeminent marathon on Earth partially because it has eliminated so many of those types of traditional standards.

I would, by the way (I'm trying not to turn this into a rant) like to see the return to the 4 hour time limit and to more strictly enforced qualifying times. I had to break 2:50 to get in. Those standards made running Boston a special accomplishment. I'm not sure what running Boston means anymore.

For the past few years, including during the post-monsoon this past April, I have enjoyed talking with first timers from all over the globe while waiting in the "village". For these people, without exception, running Boston is a very BIG deal, not for the year, but in life. Their enthusiasm softens my criticism as does the attack on the charity runners when I see the kids with cancer waiting for their sponsors at the Dana Farber section just past the Mass Pike in Kenmore Sq.

Even if we lament the passing of the old days of tougher standards, I don't see the BAA scaling back the operation as long as deep pockets provided by John Hancock sponsor the event. I try to take it all in and run my race.

Does anyone know when the five year age standards were implemented? I'm assuming this is when 3:10 replaced the 2:50 men's open standard.

Here's a brief history, but it doesn't say when 2:50 was changed:

http://www.halhigdon.com/Ontherun/easyentry/easyentry.htm

I remember, as a young member of the BAA, going out a week before the marathon in 1982 to paint stenciled mile numbers in the road with John Booras and a couple of Board of Governor guys whose names I don't recall. They had paperwork from whomever measured the course from the old TAC, as I recall.

I thought Gookinaid E.R.G. was first officially offered on the course that year as well as a replacement drink. The Red Cross folks were given powder to mix with water, with inconsistent results.

Did the 2:50 go back to 3:00 in 1988, followed by the 5 year standards and the 3:10 BQ standard in 2003?

I don't remember with certainty, but that's an educated guess.

"Such is the murk of history. "Let's shed some light. I know that they had them "officialy" at every mile in 1986.Below is an account of the 85 race before the "Pro's" took over, haha.[Geoff Smith], the winner, obliquely pointed to its organizational faults by noting that he could get his splits only at the 5-, 10-, 15-, 20- and 25-mile markers "and I didn't know what I was running in between." He would have liked to have known his mile pace every mile, not every five.THE CLASS OF '85 GOES UNDERGROUND; [THIRD Edition]Michael Madden, Globe Staff. Boston Globe (pre-1997 Fulltext). Boston, Mass.: Apr 16, 1985. pg. 33 Abstract (Summary)It's the heat and the humidity, Dr. William Castelli was explaining. The runners were losing too much fluid and their temperatures were either spiking high or dipping low, liver damage the ultimate threat. Castelli looked around at the limp or quivering bodies around him, all covered by silver thermal blankets, scores of intravenous capsules flowing at once, and said, "This is as bad as it gets in here."It has become the fashion to attack this marathon and the BAA and, for sure, the Boston Marathon has its pimples and warts. Fluids for runners ran out yesterday at three of the watering stations in the latter part of the race and [Geoff Smith], the winner, obliquely pointed to its organizational faults by noting that he could get his splits only at the 5-, 10-, 15-, 20- and 25-mile markers "and I didn't know what I was running in between." He would have liked to have known his mile pace every mile, not every five.Two of the volunteers filling the thousands of paper cups with fluids for the runners were Gail Saffelle of Ticonderoga, N.Y., and Bob Ortendahl of Canton, both lieutenants in the Navy. They had been filling the cups since mid-morning. "And don't even ask how many we filled, except that it's thousands," said Saffelle.Full Text (1200 words)Copyright Boston Globe Newspaper Apr 16, 1985MARATHON '85 MICHAEL MADDENThis was Boston yesterday. The selfish stayed home and the selfless were in the garage.The runners who are called world class, the ones with the names, that little clique that has hurled epithets and abuse at the Boston Marathonbecause they are the ones to profit most if they have their way, were gone. But the race went on, and the nameless, those known only by friend and family, those with class, were in the garage. They wanted nothing and took nothing; instead, they gave."I need a cot, I need a cot," Joan Casey was pleading, her voice firm but not a shout, with runner James Hodges by her side in a wheelchair, shivering violently, dehydrated. "I need a cot now . . . can somebody please get up for me?"By now, two hours after Geoff Smith had suffered severe leg cramps but dramatically crossed the finish line as the 89th BAA winner, cots could not be had in the garage underneath the Prudential complex. Runners were sharing them, two or three to the canvas, the podiatrists working on the foot problems in one section and a legion of doctors and nurses caring for the dehydrated in another. Joan Casey, a nurse at Framingham Union Hospital, was running the show and she was calm amid the chaos."Today's a bad one," said Leslie Croci, another nurse. "We don't have enough cots."It's the heat and the humidity, Dr. William Castelli was explaining. The runners were losing too much fluid and their temperatures were either spiking high or dipping low, liver damage the ultimate threat. Castelli looked around at the limp or quivering bodies around him, all covered by silver thermal blankets, scores of intravenous capsules flowing at once, and said, "This is as bad as it gets in here."In his field, Castelli is as well known as any of these runners, either those who came or those who didn't. Castelli is director of the world- renowned Framingham Heart Study, a 53-year-old man who has come to this garage the last eight Patriots Days. He volunteers his time and expertise. He does not get paid.To his left was an emergency. Randy Bachman, a young marathoner from West Point, the number 2050 still on his chest, was stretched out on a cot, suffering from severe hyperthermia. Bachman's body temperature had soared to the extraordinarily dangerous level of 108 degrees and he was incoherent. Doctors, nurses and technicians hovered over him and the intravenous fluids were started immediately; 20 minutes later, after three IV capsules had been emptied into his body, Bachman's temperature was down to a relatively safe 102 degrees."I think our being here is part of the whole concept of the Marathon," said Castelli. "In a way, I like Boston because it's been one of the great amateur sports events in the history of the country. You can come from nowhere and if you say, 'I can do it,' you can do it right here in Boston. Anybody can."It has become the fashion to attack this marathon and the BAA and, for sure, the Boston Marathon has its pimples and warts. Fluids for runners ran out yesterday at three of the watering stations in the latter part of the race and Smith, the winner, obliquely pointed to its organizational faults by noting that he could get his splits only at the 5-, 10-, 15-, 20- and 25-mile markers "and I didn't know what I was running in between." He would have liked to have known his mile pace every mile, not every five.But those are minor irritations compared to the running clique's constant complaint against Boston - that it lacks money. Put it on the networks, the clique says, run the Marathon on Sundays, do this or do that, but run the race with money and give us our appearance and prize money. Without money, the race will die as it did yesterday when Smith beat runnerup Gary Tuttle by over 5 minutes. So they bleat, sounding like Sunday morning TV preachers, and we know who will profit most by their concern about Boston.If you believe that money is the root, the trunk and the branch of all evil, that everyone and everything has a price, that principles and traditions can be bought and sold like trinkets, that there are more selfish than selfless people in this world, then listen to the clique. But, if not, if you believe that some values can never be purchased, give an ear to some of the thousands of volunteers who yesterday worked from Hopkinton to Boston.Tom Gagner, 28, of Malden, and Jennifer McAloon, 25, of Brighton, both computer programmers at New England Life, were at the finish- line tunnels since 11 in the morning, readying the blankets for the runners. If they hadn't volunteered, they said, they would have been home for the holiday or at a Marathon party "but this is more fun than a party," said Gagner. "And it's fun because we care about the race."Two of the volunteers filling the thousands of paper cups with fluids for the runners were Gail Saffelle of Ticonderoga, N.Y., and Bob Ortendahl of Canton, both lieutenants in the Navy. They had been filling the cups since mid-morning. "And don't even ask how many we filled, except that it's thousands," said Saffelle."We're here because we want to be here and the runners should be herebecause they want to be here," said Saffelle, a Navy recruiter. "That should be it."Joanne Ivonne, a medical technology student at Framingham Union, spent the morning setting up drinks and IVs and the afternoon leading the shakiest of runners into the medical area. This is supposed to be an amateur race, she said, "and you shouldn't get paid in amateur races. If they want to be paid, they should run in professional races."There were many more. Sally, the bookkeeper to Dr. Lyle Micheli of Children's Hospital, the head doctor of the marathon medical area, said she'd "probably be working out in the yard if I weren't here but I came because I enjoy it. I'll say this: you wouldn't get this number of people here if you paid them - they like to volunteer - and I feel I'm lucky to know somebody just so I could volunteer."True, there is no excuse for shoddy organization, and marathoners have only so many marathons in their bodies and now they choose to run for money in Pittsburgh and stay away from penurious Boston. Times yesterday were slow andneither the men's nor women's race was competitive. But the drama of Smith's cramp was high and the crowds were large. Boston, if not the racing clique, still loves the Boston Marathon.Times have changed, we are told, and the BAA must adapt. But times always change. What won't change is this - the most indispensable people to the Boston Marathon are not those runners who hold out for more, but its volunteers who work and help the runners for the love of the race. Without them, there is no race.The same cannot be said of the clique.

The Odie is John wrote:

Did the 2:50 go back to 3:00 in 1988, followed by the 5 year standards and the 3:10 BQ standard in 2003?

I don't remember with certainty, but that's an educated guess.

No. I had to break 2:50 to get in the race in 88. I'm not sure about 89 as I got into Boston that year on the basis of my sub 2:50 from 88. In 95 I only had to break 3:10 (I think...) so the change from 2:50 occurred sometime in the early nineties. Does anyone know when it changed from 3:00 to 2:50? Was it 83?

Oops! I hadn't clicked on Higdon's article. 1980 is the answer, apparently.

I think it's important to note that imposing tighter standards did not stem the tide of entrants. I think it helped the marathon BECAUSE there were standards. Boston became the Olympics for those - like me - of average talent. Of course there are still standards, but so many get into the race as charity runners that to say you've run Boston isn't to say anything about the quality of your running. Even folks who thought a four minute marathon was a good time knew that getting into Boston was an accomplishment. It gave the average runner something to shoot for and thus helped dragged the sport toward the top.

escargot, I beg to differ. I ran my debut marathon at the Boston Peace Marathon in November 1986, senior year of college, and limped to the finish in 3:12:50. I ran Boston in April 1987 as a bandit and finished in 3:03:08. November 1987 I went back to Boston Peace and ran 3:01:05. I applied to Boston for April 1988 and was given an official number even though I had missed the standard. I do not remember my exact time at Boston 1988 but it was something over 3 hours. November 1988 I went back to Boston Peace and ran 2:58:03 to qualify for Boston 1989, although I think they may have gone to 3:10 for the 1989 race.

Off that I'd say Boston 1987 had a 2:50 qualifying time and it changed to 3:00 for 1988.

escargot wrote:

Even folks who thought a four minute marathon was a good time knew that getting into Boston was an accomplishment.

Call me crazy but I think a four minute marathon is pretty good, at least better than average.

I first ran Boston in 1962... There were probably less than 10 marathons on the continent...

In fact there were 8, in order of age:

Boston

Yonkers

Western Hemisphere (Culver City, CA last run 2001)

Pike's Peak

Atlantic City

Cherry Tree Marathon (Bronx, later became Long Island)

Heart of America

Washington's Birthday