College becoming the new High School?

For sure. I've thought this for a while now. Which is why I am in grad school. Although I can't say that people with Bachelor's degrees are being screwed over, because I have many friends who have great starting salaries now.

That's pretty much how it is. It's just the standard route these days to go to college after high school, even for mediocre students. The only problem with the comparison is the huge variation between different schools and areas of study. A liberal arts degree from some state university isn't really comparable to an engineering degree from a good school.

I actually think most people believe the same as you. It's been watered down for years now.

What's even sillier are guys graduating with a bachelors and applying for positions that require experience and think just because they have a degree they should not have to work their way up.

Except for in sports. High school has become the old college for most sports that don't have some pre-arranged, big-brother "we will restrict your access, right to work, and potential income for your own good" agreement with the athlete's union to protect the old-timers at the end of their careers. College is filled with second tier athletes for the majority of sports.

Yea, a group did a small study and a test showed those who graduate college are barely smarter than high school students. I'm a junor in college and I feel much dumber than 2 years ago. Still, though, 30% of Americans are college educated and more Americans are in jail than enrolled in college.

i go to a school in the 'state college' system...college is much easier than high school (at least via pressure).

when in high school we were TOLD that college is the high school of old. a bachelors now is what a diploma once was. you have alot of trouble getting any entry level job with a b.s/b.a...with that it only makes sense to go right through for masters and any other additional certs you may need

themack

The OP is right, but it is also the importance of how you go about it. Going straight to grad school will put you behind people with a few years of experience in the working world.

I did not plan on going to grad school, so entered the business world for two years before going back to grad school.

Not only did it help me get into a much better grad program, but after I finished grad school I got a much better position/salary than my grad-school classmates.

After 5 years, I am still much farther along than my classmates, so I think the two years prior to grad school ended up equaling at least 5 post grad. I basically skipped the 5-10 year middle-management bullshit.

Just a thought to you seniors that know what you want to do. If you are not sure what you want to do, grad school is better than some shit-job.

Unfortunately, I agree. Going to college used to be something really special – just watch older movies depicting what college was about or talk to somebody who graduated in the 1950’s. It has changed in many good ways, but also many ways that make it like a continuation of high school.

A college degree used to mean advanced education, but now a bachelors is more standard. A Master’s degree used to mean even more advanced. Instead of 2-3 years thesis-required Master’s programs, there are now 1 year non-thesis options. As a result, those who got a MA or MS 20 years ago now have the same degree on paper a students who basically did a one year extension of undergrad. While experience still goes into the equation, a Master’s is now no longer the same qualification it used to be. Same thing with PhD. It used to be enough to have a PhD to get a university job. However, the system is so flooded with PhD’s, now there is a need for post-doctoral experience for many jobs.

Again, these are general observations. There are plenty of quality undergrad and masters programs, including some non-thesis one year programs, and plenty of quality individuals coming from these. I know a few non-thesis MS people who busted their butts just to stay afloat and they got good jobs afterwords. However, there are considerably more easier programs as well, which dilute the overall quality of what the degree itself means. This is not to say a person is better or worse than another based on degree, it just makes it harder when it comes to getting jobs and understanding what the degree itself means.

Dr.S wrote:

Instead of 2-3 years thesis-required Master’s programs, there are now 1 year non-thesis options. As a result, those who got a MA or MS 20 years ago now have the same degree on paper a students who basically did a one year extension of undergrad. While experience still goes into the equation, a Master’s is now no longer the same qualification it used to be. Same thing with PhD. It used to be enough to have a PhD to get a university job. However, the system is so flooded with PhD’s, now there is a need for post-doctoral experience for many jobs.

And now a lot of programs directly admit you to their Ph.D. program, without requiring you to get your non-thesis/thesis Master's. So basically a student could just have their B.S. and Ph.D. with no Master's. A lot of this is because doctoral-admitted students usually already have 1-4 years of research experience just from their undergrad, and thus the Master's isn't really necessary.

Furthermore, it's so incredibly hard to get your foot in the door with federal funding (~R01, R21, etc.). As you mentioned a post-doc is an absolute requirement if you aspire to be a PI and competitive with other applicants for jobs/funding, and better yet it's who you know and have worked with. Unfortunately, PI's are struggling right now due to cut-backs on federal funding, even the best of the best.

Yep. Alot of colleges these days are a cakewalk. Kids who really aren't all that intelligent can party for 4 years and get a degree. A Masters is the new Bachelors.

And whoever said that you should work for a couple years before you get your Masters is giving very good advice.

I'm not going to say college is easy or hard, I'm sure it depends where you are, what you're doing, and how you apply yourself. However, I think in the whole scope of things its still somewhat rare to get a college degree. Sure, 85% of kids at a suburban school will likey go to college and 60% or so will get a degree, however there are still inner city schools where only 50% even graduate high school. There are rural schools with similar statistics. Depending on where you are from alters your perception.

With that said, I have to admit that a large chunk of my friends from college that I graduated with ended up going to graduate school. I think more than half of them simply didnt quite know what to do with themselves yet, which is understandable. As for me, I knew I was done after 4 years.

Grad Student wrote:

Maybe I'm jaded because most of the people I know are college grads and some of them are now grad students. However I get the feeling like having a college degree is much like having a high school diploma was 50 or 60 years ago. To me it seems like so many people in the US go to college now that it's basically made it a wash. I was just wondering if anyone else though this way or if I'm just a touch jaded because I hang out with college friends and grad student friends now.

I found college (Annapolis) quite difficult. I feel I got my (or, I should say, the taxpayer's money's worth).

The value of a college degree began to change wih G.I. Bill after WWII. College was simply out of reach for most Americans before WWII. In the last 60 years, the American labor scene has changed dramatically. Less blue collar, more white collar...information age, etc... To service that workforce, colleges and universities evolved into job training programs. You can still get a 'classical' education in the U.S., but it's harder to find.

The other thing to note is that college degrees can repesent anythng from rigorous 4-5 years of study at a place like MIT, or something far less difficult at a less prestigous school. Employers know the difference. So today, going to college isn't as much the answer as where you go and, most importantly, what you study and how well you do.

that is because most colleges dont have hard curriculum or the average american college student is very lazy. I have a friend at an ivy who does very little work. He is even considered to be in one of the tougher majors (something to do with humanities i think its english or classics) He writes 1 four page essay a month and just partys for the rest of his time there. He is in 4 classes this semester. The only realy places that a college degree matter are the small elite liberal arts colleges (they give a ton of work and tough profs.) or the hard classes at state schools (get to use amazing resources and are usually sournded by enough competent faculty). A degree in accounting or communications from a big school is essentially useless unless you go to grad school.

Towson exile wrote:

Yea, a group did a small study and a test showed those who graduate college are barely smarter than high school students. I'm a junor in college and I feel much dumber than 2 years ago. Still, though, 30% of Americans are college educated and more Americans are in jail than enrolled in college.

You are an embarrassment to yourself and other college students. Did you do the research yourself for that study for being barely smarter? My hypothesis would be that if you actually studied and paid attention in class you would feel smarter. Maybe you are killing your brain with alcohol and/or drugs every weekend?

I am in my fourth year studying Mech. Engineering, and I feel infinitely smarter than when I left high school. I feel like I can understand how the world works, why things happen the way they do, and I also feel I have a better grasp on how to "make it" in the real world. College has opened up so many opportunities to me.

That fact about "more people in prison than in college" is a totally skewed statistic by the way. The average college students are aged 18 to 23, and to enter prison you can aged 18 (or less) and up. So think about percentage of populations or data collection methods next time you try to cite some fact so you can look smart.

I don't think he was serious, or at least I hope he wasn't...

Read a little:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Educational_attainment_in_the_United_States

Wikipedia may not be the best source but this article refers to data from the US Census Bureau.

Been that way for tweny years, my friend.

As a hiring manager, I absolutely discount undergrad. Unless you are coming out of a top-tier school, you had BETTER have a graduate degree in SOMETHING (preferably related to your targeted industry).

I am none too impressed with grad skool grads these days either (and Ivy Leaguers, of which I am one, are these days big leftist bags o' crap, in case you were wondering. And I wouldn't touch a womyn's skool grad with a 10' pole, but these are all private thoughts that would NEVER go in to the hiring rationale, right?).

And yet fewer than 30% of American adults have a college degree. Check with the DoL. Many Americans go to college, but a lot fewer actually finish.

A bigger question for me is what is going to happen to vocational jobs if every kid is supposed to be a structural engineer or a doctor? Who is going to do carpentry, fix your car or fix your pipes when your toilet's broken? I went to HS with a guy who's dad was a plumber: charged $95/hr and he drove a Corvette. You can make a lot of money if you don't mind working with your hands and digging around in shit. I know some carpentry firms where the youngest guy is damn near 30. College isn't for everyone.

I should follow up; schools I take (more) seriously (than others):

MIT/CalTech (and, really, any tech--Cooper Union)

Swarthmore/Williams, etc.

Princeton (but NOT Brown; Harvard--'cause you have to--but NOT Yale; Columbia, Cornell--depends, Penn, Dartmouth--Yes!)

Colby/Bowdoin/Bates, etc.

Deep Springs (look it up)

UVA/Wm&Mary

Schools I discount immediately:

Wellesley (but not Barnard or Bryn Mawr)

Holyoke (but maybe not Vassar or Smith...MAYBE)

Men from Sarah Lawrence or Wheaton

Simmons

I have a thing for most Cali schools (save Berkeley); Washington & Ohio are okay by me... let's see, what other totally biased opinions do I have? Oh, I *love* the service academies! Penn State I'll take.

That's about it: the rest are just a blur to me: a big bundle of bell curve fatness, unless you had some REALLY great internships.

Oh, and I will *always* give a runner a second look, in case you were wondering. Most everyone else heads for the roundfile PDQ; there are only so many hours in the day, and interviewing is really a bore.