Couples without kids are selfish?

kidless wrote:

The conclusion only follows from YOUR premises there, genius, not Robbies.

You see, robbie never said "Everyone should not reproduce". He simply said that not reproducing is more selfless, scientifically speaking, because it has less of a carbon footprint. Which it does. He even added in the phrase "from a purely scientific standpoint."

Now that was supposed to be your cue to understand the obvious -- that he was talking merely about the environmental impact and nothing more. In the least you should have understood, as the rest of us did, that he was certainly not proposing that nobody have kids. But no, that wouldn't give you a straw man to tear down with your masterful command of logical fallacies, would it?

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black. You have done nothing but tear down a straw man.

Did I ever attribute the statement that "everyone should not reproduce" to Robbie? No. I simply said that from the point of view of the "good of our planet," if not adding people is good, then subtracting people is better. I, too, was "talking merely about the environmental impact and nothing more."

Finally, go back and read my initial response to Robbie. Isn't it obvious that it was a joke? This whole thread is full of people who are taking things far too seriously.

what it really comes down to is that everyone is selfish, even me, even mother teresa, some people get joy and comfort out of helping others so they choose to help others. the real problem is the need for instant gratification. why do you think this country owes china trillions of dollars in debt? because us consumers can't keep our hands out of our own pockets. people are going to bash me saying that some people aren't lucky enough to not run up huge debt. i think that is wrong, most people live beyond their means. credit cards didn't used to exist, people just did without flat screen tvs the size of field goal posts instead of buying them on credit and paying 30% interest on them for the next 30 years. people who don't pay off credit cards are just morons. everyone is selfish. that is just the moral of the story.

69?

EVERY night?

Oh baby.

there is no shortage of people currently living in the us. there is no shortage of people who WISH to live in the us. we have too many people, not too few. taxes should be redistributed to people who remain childless to continue this trend. if we ever need new blood all we have to do is open the borders.

I never had kids because none of the hot women I knew in my younger days gave me the time of day.

Of course there were fewer cute women then, women in their 20's and 30's today are much prettier than in my day.

Oh well...dems da breaks.

Ol Grumpus wrote:

Finally, go back and read my initial response to Robbie. Isn't it obvious that it was a joke?

No

This whole thread is full of people who are taking things far too seriously.

Welcome to the club

Snake Pliskin wrote:

I am not trying to prove anything.

That ladies comment just blew me away.

Sorry man, I was just kidding.

It has been said before, but it is a personal choice. Neither camp should cast judgement on the other. But that being said, only be a parent if you are prepared to at least try to be a good one (whatever that means).

The Tax man wrote:

Well it could be viewed as selfish. The reason we are going to have a social security crisis in a few years is partly because people have been having fewer children in recent times. See the tax base is getting smaller (less kids growing up and paying taxes) and the retired population is increasing (and living longer). This is also the good reason parents get a break on taxes. Their kids (indirectly through taxes) will help support them later.

This argument is a fine argument in an expanding economy and stable population. Once you take into account that almost all highly paid jobs - engineers, Physicians, professors are becoming more and more dependent on imported talent. Indicates the US is in for a lot more trouble than propping up social security.

And jump to the booming population and the impact a single American has on the environment, do we really need more people?

First of all, this is Letsrun, so no more well-thought out, balanced commentaries giving both sides of an argument merit.

Second, I was sure Mr. Mustaine was a troll for a while because his criticism of the childless was straight out of the I-have-kids-so-I-must-be-a-selfless-saint text book. His posts were almost too perfect. Until he revealed that he had a kid because he f***ed up. Good for you buddy, so you stuck around after knocking up your girl friend/one night stand and now have a lifetime of committment/responsibility you weren't planning on and could have possibly walked away from. Pat yourself on the back for us, it was the right, "unselfish" thing to do that many never accept. But it reeks horribly of jealousy when you accuse someone who enjoys what life has to offer with less responsibility as being selfish.

Third, this whole argument could have been avoided if we all realized that selfishness is a not always a bad thing. It is a trait, a way to survive, a characteristic. But it is not intrinsicly "wrong." Selfishness carries such a bad connotation, but as long as you are not harming or are a drain on anyone else, there is nothing wrong with selfishness. Besides, there are many valid arguments that both people who choose to have and choose not to have children are selfish and should not be ashamed of it.

Please, no eurotrash here.

Let me tell you about my life and compare it to my co-worker.

My co-worker make $100K pre-tax, and that works out to about $5500-$6000/month after taxes.

He has a stay-at-home wife, monthly payments on a house, and a two-year-old to take care of. He ran a couple of marathons before the baby was born, and now between working 60 hours a week and taking care of his kids, he doesn't have time to train anymore. Aside from his 401K contributions he has no other savings account.

I make $60K a year, about $3500 after taxes/401K contributions/premiums on insurance. I live in a nice apartment, spend another $500 on food / running shoes / taking my girlfriend to wherever she wants to go on the weekends and every month I fly across the country to visit friends/relatives. I have a room to myself, go out with my friends whenever I want and go do my workouts and runs whenever I want. On top of that I'm still putting a few hundred dollars away in my own personal savings account.

The more I read this thread the more I realize how good I have it. No kids for me.

I have 2 kittens.

FolsomRunner wrote:

I would take 100 mexican illegals over 1 Russian.

Well, you shouldn't.

My experience last weekend, as I sat in the Neonatal ICU, my wife and I overheard the nurses talking about twin babies in the same wing. Seems they called the mother to pick up her twins. She told them, in Spanish, to: 1)stop harassing her, 2) that she has two other kids to care for so she is too busy, 3) she wouldn't pick them up until she could afford their medicine, and 4) she didn't know how to sign up for Medic-aid.

An Spanish speaking immigrant, status unknown, with two new anchor babies, who is going to let her twins sit in the NICU for at least $1000 per day because she couldn't afford their medicine and was too busy with her other little ones. All at our (taxpayers) expense.

Snake Pliskin wrote:

My wife and I are both 40, and are happy that we do not have any children. We like kids, but know we do not want any of our own.

Does she think people like my wife and I are selfish because we are not tired, broke and we can take several vacations a year?

Strange world we live in.

Yes you are selfish. The whole point of being selfish is that you want to make YOURSELF happy (as oppossed to selflessly loving others) because you hold yourself in such high regard. Our culture calls this self actualization and self esteem, which we relentlessly teach our children.

I'm not saying its always wrong to not have kids. But yes, not having them for the reason of having more cash and vacation time is selfish. Seems pretty obvious. Maybe the reason you are upset is that you don't think there is anything wrong with being selfish. Most people don't...unless its anyone else being selfish.

You still don`t get it. The only reason you can live happily with your after tax income, without kids, is because the strong economy. When the economy begins to struggle due to lack of labour (which by the way is very much going to be HUGE problem)your childless lifestyle will suffer also.

There has to be incentive to have children (aka. tax funded social support), otherwise if everyone did what felt right in this material country, no one would have kids.

i'm 30 and got married not too long ago -

my wife are considering having kids but haven't made up our minds yet...

one thing I always wondered - those who have kids always say, it is great, i wouldn't trade it for anything, blah blah

sounds nice? i wonder how much of that is to convince yourself

obviously you love your kids but you really can't be a parent and say - wow, i liked my life better before - because that means you would rather not junior be around

SO parents in all honesty - are the rewards always greater than the joys of parenting - how much do you miss personal freedoms

i'm sure it is something you have to experience to answer that is why i am asking?

Honestly, I find life much more meaningful and rewarding since the birth of our daughter. I also think that we are lucky because our daughter has always been very easy going and very happy. My parents just said last night, if every toddler was like my daughter everyone would have 10 kids.

anEconomist wrote:

i'm 30 and got married not too long ago -

my wife are considering having kids but haven't made up our minds yet...

one thing I always wondered - those who have kids always say, it is great, i wouldn't trade it for anything, blah blah

sounds nice? i wonder how much of that is to convince yourself

obviously you love your kids but you really can't be a parent and say - wow, i liked my life better before - because that means you would rather not junior be around

SO parents in all honesty - are the rewards always greater than the joys of parenting - how much do you miss personal freedoms

i'm sure it is something you have to experience to answer that is why i am asking?

Since this is a running website, I guess I'll compare it to running because I think both are similar on different scales.

Running doesn't always feel good. It's a hell of a lot of hard work and sometimes you just want to quit. It makes you tired and it hurts and somedays you wonder if it is all worth it. You go to bed early while your friends are still up and out, and you wake up early while your friends are still sleeping. But in the end, when you have that one race where you run a 15 second PR, it makes all the hard work worth it. No runner on here doesn't think the sacrifice is worth it. Non-runners can't see what the attraction is, that is, until they try it.

Having children is much the same way. It is no doubt tiring, frustrating, maddening, and at least for me, worrisome. You worry constantly about your kids. Everything you were ever scared of yourself, now you worry ten-fold about your kids. Getting sick, or hurt or stolen or whatever, it's a constant worry. You won't consistently get a full nights sleep until they approach their teenage years. You'll always be up in the middle of the night to feed them or change them or clean up puke out of their bed or bring them a snack or drink or check under their bed for a monster. They'll frustrate you beyond belief, and yes, you'll be jealous of your friends with no kids. But in the end, no parent would trade their kids for anything, just as no runner would give up running for anything. It's the most demanding job in the world, but in the end, unequivically, it is worth it.

Baby Maker 69 wrote:

You still don`t get it. The only reason you can live happily with your after tax income, without kids, is because the strong economy. When the economy begins to struggle due to lack of labour (which by the way is very much going to be HUGE problem)your childless lifestyle will suffer also.

except that is not going to happen because as sombeody else said all we need to do is open the borders and voila! more instant labor.

our population is increasing not decreasing regardless of the source so your point is empty.

"There has to be incentive to have children (aka. tax funded social support), otherwise if everyone did what felt right in this material country, no one would have kids."

wrong again. plenty of people would have kids. you know how we know this now? because right now there is very little incentive to have kids and yet people are still doing it. they arent doing it for some cheap labor supply thing or because of government subsidies. they are doing it because they want kids you fool.