Tracking improvement with HR

Hadd doesn't say never, and your interpretation is close, but not quite correct.

Somthing else to ponder:

So, going by the Hadd method, this 11 month 'veteran' runner straight off the couch is currently running between 9:30 - 10:15 or so pace at the prescribed easy effort (MaxHR - 50) target effort level.

I use the term 'running' here very loosely...

Now, according the the Jack Daniels VDOT formula thing, if I use my best race to date (1:40:40 HM back in January) it gives me a VDOT of 44.73, which translates to:

R pace (1.08*vdot): 06:20.71

I pace (0.975*vdot): 06:53.60

T pace (0.88*vdot): 07:29.34

E/L pace (0.70*vdot): 08:59.99

basically 9:00 pace for my easy/long/recovery paces...and that's based on a race that I feel I could run a fair bit faster now, being about 6+ months later.

I'm liking the idea of keeping these easier paced runs closer to 9:00, and this pace seems to be pretty consistent with the HRR formula of ~70%HRR, give or take a little.

Is it likely that this JD VDOT formula applies to slower guys like me better than the Hadd method, at least towards the beginning of my 'career'?

PS: I know I'm quite slow relative to younger and /or more experienced runners, but I think I'm doing reasonably well so far with a 1:40:40 HM after just under 5 months from beginning running, followed by a 3:42 marathon about 1 month later. That's not too shabby for a 32YO with *very* little previous physical activity is it?

I'm hoping to get that marathon down to ~3:25 next March, and then eventually down to 2:5x in the next several years.

Thanks again all, for the good feedback

You should go to

www.coachbenson.com

He has free charts on pace and effort on his website in pdf form. I think those charts could help you out.

Ali

Thanks Ali, those charts actually do look pretty good. I may even order his book. Anyone have experience with Coach Benson's methods? if so, thoughts?

I am 19 and will be starting my first year of college. I have a goal of walking on to the cross country and track team, Next Year. I want a full year of base so I can prepare. I had a friend who recommended HADD to me. I've been doing a variation of this program for 6 weeks. It has not been going very well.

I considered myself an above average runner in High School. I was more of a 400/800 runner then a true distance runner. I had a pr of 53 in the 400, and ran 2:01 in the 800. Not great, but still above average. I ran cross country all 4 years of high school, and only had a pr of 17:18.

The problem is that when using a HRM as a guide for my runs I end up running 11:30 minute miles at 75% max heart rate. Before my senior year of track I never ran slower then 6:30 miles for ALL my runs. Granted they were only 30-35 minute runs. This is a very drastic change.

I have stuck with the HADD training for 6 weeks now. I am seriously considering dropping it for something else. I just don't see how this is going to help. Can someone else give me some advice??

C'mon. 11:30 miles at 75% max HR. Are you sure you have all those numbers right??

A couple possibilities: you've miscalculated your HR paces, or more likely, the type of training you've done in past years has trained your body to quickly shoot your HR up to near LT levels immediately on departure. Now you're trying to teach it to run easy but it's still thinking it needs to go into (6:30) pace.

Your body does not recognize a real incremental difference between easy and hard, just easy (11:30) or hard (~6:30).

I'd suggest dropping your base pace down towards 8:00-8:30 and let your HR learn to catch up with the real effort you are putting out. run at what you would consider conversational pace (perceived exertion = easy-easy/moderate) and use the HR data as a tool but not the end all of your training regimen.

I'd go with what coach 13 said, more or less. In fact, in the very thread in which Hadd said there were certain runners who can temporarily exceed the recommended HR zones, he referred specifically to young runners (although he was talking about girls mostly, and I assume from 2:01 you are a guy). Try running subjectively easy without the HRM most of the time. Easy means easy, not even breathing too hard most days. I'm an old (old) middle distance guy and I find it difficult to move my LT up and to get in aerobic 'shape,' but it can be done. I never thought I'd be able to say something like this, but this morning I went for 98 minutes of easy running (still about 8 minute pace for me) and got back to the house feeling like I'd gone for a short walk.

As an aside, I did somewhat like you and took the first year of college to just run and adjust to college life and work. The second year I was a cross country also ran, but then I crushed every PR I had in track by a wide margin right from the first race. Good luck.

Jl,

A couple of ideas here. I log and use hr every day for myself. One way to look at progress is how guick it takes to recover. Examples of this would be after an interval going to lets say 170 hr. How long it takes to get down to say 140 hr. In the course of a workout the recovery will get longer. So say you were doing repeat 800s and the first one takes 30 sec and the sixth takes 45 sec this can become your benchmark for future workouts. Now say you go out and your times and hrates are constant but you are taking for example 40 sec to recover on interval 1 and find interval 3 take 1min to recover you might say you are not ready to work out in this way yet. So this meathod can be used for any kind of run or workout and can tell you if you are improveing or getting worse at least on a short term. Its true that you have to take into consideration the external factors such as temperature,etc. However the variance from day to day while not entirely negligable is not so wide as to not render this approach meaningless.

I have to mention that cardiology physiology alone can not tell the full story. There are a host of additional factors that effect ones ability to improve. The nervous system can give one the sense of vigor and ease of movement. On a good day one might enjoy the fact that they are running and want to f***in rumble .They can tolerate and welcome pushing boundries. The bad days are the opposite. Here there is no enjoyment from the activity. It becomes a struggle to get moving. There is a link to negative effects on the endocrine system(specifically norepinefferin(adrenalin)and cortisol with exagerated or prolonged stress. This is why when one tries to keep improving for a long period of time without a break one can not do so and tends to ends up feeling like shit during runs. I would keep track how you felt emotionally during each run. If for the most part you are having fun you are probably going to make progress. If you feel good 1/2 the time or neither good or bad during or after runs you probably wont improve to much .At this point one can hold a peak and not fall back too much. However if you start to feel like its work a majority of the time I believe there is an unlikely possibility of improvement. At this point a break would be appropriate or else performance degredation may occur.

In conclussion my ideas are based on my own experience from training over 20 years and observations of other runners. This is in addition to reaserch I have done from text books and abstracts . I have yet to have been impressed by any studies I have read that would suggest any of what I say is valid or invalid. In the end true performance is based on the objective one is trying to measure(RACING). Everything else is just a tool to keep on track. I sure hope this is usefull. Blackatack

coach #13 wrote:

A couple possibilities: you've miscalculated your HR paces, or more likely, the type of training you've done in past years has trained your body to quickly shoot your HR up to near LT levels immediately on departure. Now you're trying to teach it to run easy but it's still thinking it needs to go into (6:30) pace.

Your body does not recognize a real incremental difference between easy and hard, just easy (11:30) or hard (~6:30).

I'd suggest dropping your base pace down towards 8:00-8:30 and let your HR learn to catch up with the real effort you are putting out. run at what you would consider conversational pace (perceived exertion = easy-easy/moderate) and use the HR data as a tool but not the end all of your training regimen.

Well that's probably what my scenario has been....running at a perceived exertion which feels easy then just document what HR is? Sounds like it's flying in the face of the Maffetone method which still has me running 11:00 per mile pace. I'm doing this these days, very interesting.