Saratoga Springs Ripped off by NTN

Unbelievable. This is High School running. All Nike does is put on a fun event, even if they are advertising, who cares? Ask each participant in the event if they should do away with NTN? Participants LOVE the event.

speed ratings, team averages, course/time comparisons, course difficulty... sorry everyone but they are all bologna. speed ratings are a made up method of gauging speed, sorry but unless every course was inspected to determine the exact weather, muddiness, difficulty, and length... then you can't really use these to compare runners. its using paper to dictate a race, and thats not why people run races. team averages can be thrown off by one front runner, despite huge gaps within the 1-5 range. these are not viable measurements to compare teams especially whey you have a pack team versus a front runner and the rest follow team. course time comparisons are crazy too, people say the PA course couldn't possibly have been as hard as people made it sound. did the NTN people actually go to the course and inspect its difficulty... do they actually know if it was hard or not? maybe they just used the super fast guys times to declare it not so difficult.

sorry folks, but the only logical way to judge a team... subtracting anything written down on paper BEFORE a race, is head to head competition. HEAD TO HEAD competition is the only way to accurately compare teams. and i think thats whats throwing people over this toga radnor cn debate. any team can make excuses as to why they didnt run to potential. "so and so is injured" "so and so was sick". sorry folks, but thats the name of the game. nike used this as, "oh they are going to be better and running better by then so they should be invited". it shouldnt work that way, but it did. you win some you lose some, but the thing i think is wrong is in using paper to determine outcomes of things that havent yet happened.

Well,

http://www.borderwarsports.com/complex.php

or

xcnation.com

either one answers your rant. It did for me.

Friend helping a friend:)

speed ratings are how each runner finshed elative to each other. Meylan mostly relies on the middle runners to make it even more accurate. How can it be bologna?

If head to head is the most reliable method of comparison, how do you explain Midlothian and Roosevelts dominance of the NE at Man.? No one has answered the question. You use head to head only if it reinforces your point. You disregard speed ratings for the same reason. You ignore actual results in NTN and cling to the same inconsistent argument of the high value of head in spite of other conflicting data. Sagacious is smart eough to just ignore the question, because the answer isn't pretty.

Again, anyone, bolster your argument by explaining why head to head didn't work with Man.

Silence. . .

My take:

Head to head

End of season - high value. (That's why Feds sorted out NY)

Mid season - lesser.

Eary season - even less.

Saratoga wanted to even get credit for previous year's dominance.

End of the season races - highest value.

The problem is comparing from course to course.

That's where the speed rating come to try to evaluate where teams ended the season.

A regional head to head would settle the squabbling. The early season head or won loss would mean absoluteky nothing, as they should. It's who is ready to compete in Dec. not Sept or Oct. - like Midlothian, Roosevelt and others.

I think the reason PA peeps don't like the whole speed rating thing, is because, pardon this next part, it's a NY/NJ thing! Bill Meylan doen't come out and look at out courses.. he has no idea what the State course ran. Sure word of mouth travels, but the accuracy he strives for -down to the single digits- can almost be inteligentally described, for lack of a better word, I might have to use Welll's description, as Bologna.

I think Saratoga's claim was not last years dominance (why the Tullyrunners guy used that I don't know)but the fact that:

-The only 4 teams to beat them all year were FM & Hilton (who went 1-2 at NTN) and Midlothian & ER (who had already been invited).

-That their off race at Feds still made them competitive in the NTN field even if they ran that "poorly" again at NTN (and I would presume they were hoping for a little better)

Saratoga would have finished top 3 at NTN if allowed to go. They are justified in not understanding why several teams that they had beaten head to head were selected before them.

someone earlier on in here posted about CN being the 2nd best team in NJ history and asking where radnor finished. i cant see how that would justify anything. whose to say the other PA teams ahead of radnor werent all better then the team ahead of CN and CN? if im the 2nd best runner in Cal, or Fl, or NJ doesnt mean that i will be the 2nd best runner in PA or NY. i dont understand how you were trying to justify that. if the NTN race had been going on for more then 3 years and a PA and NJ team had raced each other before then it would make alot more sense. but the only team to make NTN from PA prior to this year was cedar cliff. who did extremely bad at NTN, but this was due to how they were coached. they were coach in order to peak for the great american race in order to get ranked. if they would have peaked for NTN they may not have ran well enough at GA to even become ranked.

Head to head is most reliable, not 100% accurate. There's a difference. Speed ratings would have picked Midlo and ER way up as well. I believe speed ratings picked Midlo to win. You sure you still want to talk about accuracy of speed ratings? I have addressed the fact that I picked ER and MIDLO to finish well behind where everyone else picked them. I did this before NTN on this board. For the same reasons I knew Midlo and ER would not be at the top, I know Cn was not as solid a team as Radnore or 'Toga at the time of selection. I have outlined why this is true in regards to Holmdel and VCP history and comparisons between the girls times at the PA state meet and VCP. "could you imagine" has chosen to ignore this because he knows there is no statistical way to justify a pick of CN. He also knows that based on 'Toga's - and Burnt Hills' - finish in relation to Hilton and FM at Feds, they would have been ahead of CN at NTN. The guilt is killing them so they skirt the issue. I love to watch it. Like I said, I'm not a Radnor or 'Toga fan. I'm not from NY or PA. I do know the sport, however and this was a stupid call. If for no other reason it gives a meet like borderclash a foothold where it wouldn't have had one otherwise. So be it.

Sagacious wrote:

Head to head...etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc...

Let it GO! wrote:

Choose your friends and political allies and just guess after that etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.

Fortunately, I know some third graders that helped me respond to your post with equivalent maturity.

BTW-Congratulations on ironic screen name of the year!

hahahahaha!

So how are you involved or should I say, "getting involved" with the new system? Since it has caught your attention and kept you here for the past week.

betterthanu2 wrote:

hahahahaha!

So how are you involved or should I say, "getting involved" with the new system? Since it has caught your attention and kept you here for the past week.

We'll see. If by the "new system" you mean borderclash, I have no direct involvement but could probably steer a couple top teams that way if it looks legit. People keep making the NIT comparison but are missing a more apt comparison. NSIC in New York is an awesome meet on a better track and gets equal or better competition as NIN in many events. If NTN has decided that getting the best field possible for their meet is not as important as pleasing their inner circle, then there might be a need for a meet that at least gives the opportunity for a true national championship. If teams would rather stick with NTN, I can't blame them. It is a fantastic opportunity and experience for those lucky enough to be chosen. It would be better if they chose themselves throough qualification, however.

Sagacious wrote:

http://tinyurl.com/vbwqk

It's called denial. When something dies (like your chances to go to NTN), you can't give that up. Usually, one goe through stage of acceptance. In Sagcious' case he has fixated on the denial stage. If you beat the drum slowy maybe they will make it - next year.

I've accepted the horrible realty CN went and proved themselves. I'm going through various stages of euphoria peppered by incredible pangs of guilt - well maybe no guilt.

I'm in the gloat phase now.

"could you imagine"/let it go:

Haven't quite accepted that I didn't have a team involved yet, have you. In regards to beating a dead horse. I hardly think that responding to others' commentary - albeit hillarious and unfounded commentary - qualifies as "beating a dead horse". But it makes sense that you would have as much trouble with idioms as you do with cross country statistics. Keep it coming though. You haven't bored me yet. If you ever get around to addressing issue rather than misquoting idioms, get back to me on the time spreads at FEds vs NTN and PA state vs VCP vs NTN. I know you ignore those because they prove irrefutably that along with the events leasing up to NTN, the race itself showed that NTN screwed up in this case. But keep the dream alive boys, it's all you have, the illusion. I finally understand the "could you imagine" moniker, it's like "could you imagine a world where this decision made sense?" It does take quite the imagination. And denial? Kettle, pot, black. Yes.

WHO - CARES

Two Words wrote:

WHO - CARES

Well, there's me. Then there's the guy who probably posted under 4 or five screen names who insists I won't let the thread die but is always the one who brings it back from the second page, which I have never done.

Besides us, probably no one else at this point but it keeps me entertained and gives me a break at work from time to time.

Some people find your persistent arrogance (i.e. the self-serving moniker,Sagacious)obnoxious. Not me. I enjoy the reading the drivel, not only on this thread. You're prolific, if nothing else. Just that is worth the price of admission.

I didn't bring up the "dead horse" issue, but it applies perfectly to you. I don't have to change or prove anything to feel better. I have admit the guilt thing really hurt. Sorry only kidding. This chit chat is for entertainment. I certainly don't think there is even an infintestimal chance you'll see the light - your presentation and posturing of infallble expertise on every issue is what's fun to read. I'm not bored either. I am a little jealous of the enormous time you can put into your dogma on so many boards and threads. You have my respect for righting so many wrongs.

In my denial,I feel I am progressing from gloating (which is obnoxiuos) to concern - that others have to struggle with the anger and disappointment at the reality being left out. Now, you made me dip into sadness which is fortunatly over riding my guilt. But really as you pointed out, I live in a dream world where none of this really matters, thank God.