Saratoga Springs Ripped off by NTN

mathematician wrote:

So far this year the south is doing much better at FL than NE, both girls and boys.

So far? The meet isn't for about two more weeks. Then we'll see how the South stacks up. And for the record, I do agree that the top two South girls are very, very good this year and are better than any girl in the Northeast. But that's not how it normally goes.

mathematician wrote:

So far this year the south is doing much better at FL than NE, both girls and boys.

did you see the FLNE boys race this year?

IMO, NTN is going to do to HS XC what the NCAA has done to college track (and to a lesser extent, XC) - vastly diminish and perhaps even totally eliminate any meaning in a regular meet season.

I've already seen it here in CT - teams tank league meets by holding out their top few athletes to rest them for an upcoming invitational, which they must run in order to chase the Holy Grail of regional rankings. Certainly, some of these teams don't get any competition w/in their leagues, but it is getting to the point that even teams that haven't a snowball's chance in hell of getting a ranking and NTN invite are following the same path.

I had fears of this happening when NTN was first announced, and I'm sad to say it seems to be coming to pass.

JimG wrote:

IMO, NTN is going to do to HS XC what the NCAA has done to college track (and to a lesser extent, XC) - vastly diminish and perhaps even totally eliminate any meaning in a regular meet season.

I've already seen it here in CT - teams tank league meets by holding out their top few athletes to rest them for an upcoming invitational, which they must run in order to chase the Holy Grail of regional rankings. Certainly, some of these teams don't get any competition w/in their leagues, but it is getting to the point that even teams that haven't a snowball's chance in hell of getting a ranking and NTN invite are following the same path.

I had fears of this happening when NTN was first announced, and I'm sad to say it seems to be coming to pass.

Aside from Danbury, what other teams threw league meets in order to impress the NTN committee. Glastonbury held back at one meet before an invite two days later. Most teams hold back at meets not because of NTN, but because it is a popular trend to not race until the state meets. NTN has nothing to do with this. I really don't thik you can name any more teams that did this.

Sagacious wrote:

Aside from Danbury, what other teams threw league meets in order to impress the NTN committee. Glastonbury held back at one meet before an invite two days later. Most teams hold back at meets not because of NTN, but because it is a popular trend to not race until the state meets. NTN has nothing to do with this. I really don\'t thik you can name any more teams that did this.

Danburys a smart team. they did what they needed to do! Good job to them.

and with Saratoga......the kranicks are actually good friends with the selection committe and bloom so it was biased against them at all

they simply are falling apart little by littleee....no one wants their kids to put up with the abuse they give out

HowdyDoooody wrote:

and with Saratoga......the kranicks are actually good friends with the selection committe and bloom so it was biased against them at all

they simply are falling apart little by littleee....no one wants their kids to put up with the abuse they give out

Kranicks and Bloom friends...ummm NO! (Although that is funny). Saratoga had a very bad race from their 4-5 at Feds that is all. If Bellon had run even as well as she did at FL at Feds they would have beaten Hilton pretty easily. If any of their other three had run as they had the rest of the season they would have beaten FM. But they didn't and that's fine and FM and Hilton going before them makes sense. Colts Neck and Radnor does not. And designating certain at larges to come from certain regions is unfair. Yes Saratoga deserves in the field but remember it's a great invitational not a national championship.

Sagacious wrote:

'Toga lost all claim at Feds.

Colts Neck was a ludicrous decision.

Radnor earned a spot.

The poster referring to NTN inability to follow their own guidelines was spot on.

NTN has no credibility. Just lots of money so they can do whatever they want.

Why is Colts Neck a ludicrous decision? They ran basically the same team average as Roxbury last year (at MOC) and Roxbury finished 9th at NTN.

Nike team nationals is an awesome event. It is great for the sport and an good experience for the kids, a chance to travel to a different part of the country on nike's bill. I highley doubt adidas is willing to pay for a single high school xc team to travel any where. I mean lets face it most of these kids wont even have meets like this if they compete in college.

And on the point of tappering for big invites, we used to do it all the time when I ran at mead nearly a decade ago long before NTN. When you are going to easily beat a team what is the point in racing your top guys hard? And if bad teams are doing it as well that is there idiocy.

This is 2006, not 2005. 'Toga and Radnor were clearly superior choices to Colts Neck.

If you really want to compare 2006 to 2005, look at how close 'Toga, Burnt Hills and Aurora 2006 were in team time to The 'Toga team that placed 2nd at NTN in 2005. They were about as close as 9th place Roxbury was.

NTN is a great event and it will not hurt high school XC unless coaches, parents, and rapid fans lose perspective. NTN is a bonus and should not be the end all of high school cross country.

All this whining and entitlement expressed by certain posters is ridiculous. Nike has GENEROUSLY created a great event. Without qualifying meets, selections will never be perfect, NEVER. Some deserving teams will always be left out, but NTN is better than the alternative of not having this meet. If Nike wasn't pleased with the people they've hired to make the best selections possible, I'm sure they'd find another committee.

Qualifying meets would be a double-edged sword. It would provide an objective method of earning an NTN bid, but it might also create more controversy with the national federation, which already frowns on post-season competition. Maybe the current situation, although not perfect, is the best option.

Please, quit the whining.

some unknown California team, That team won a state championship in what's probably the toughest state in the country.

Western World wrote:

some unknown California team, That team won a state championship in what's probably the toughest state in the country.

Thanks Rich

Comparing XC results over the course of a season is as about as far as you can get from an exact science. All races are run under different conditions, so the people stating and comparing XC results as facts and clear evidence really lose all credibility.

Doesn't it really come down to:

-who you know, how you know them, how many drinks did you share with them

-did the coach(es) recently piss off or help anyone at NTN

-the human ability or inability to ignore personal biases

-did they personally see, or not see, certain teams

-do people put more weight on recent results (hot team) or the body of work durin the year

Stop whining. There is not enough money involved to turn this into a BCS type thing. Or maybe we should open it up to 10 teams in each region....

You know why this decision sounds crazy to a lot of people: Big and bold on the NTN section of dyestat, is the criteria for the rankings process. The headline says: Head to Head Competition is the Most Important Factor.

Competition -- whom did you beat. This is the most credible factor. Teams that can't or don't travel are still considered, but the committee may have insufficient evidence to rank them high. On the other hand, teams that do travel to seek out good competition are rewarded.

Times - Despite pitfalls, meaningful conclusions can be drawn. Historical comparisons can be made to prior times on the same course, especially at courses with a long history of performances by top teams, such as Mt. SAC, Manhattan, Stanford, and Roy Griak. A team's spread from 1 to 5 is very useful information, as are the size of the gap from a team's best runners to their 5th and 6th runners. As the NTN slogan says, "every teammate counts" in cross country.

Timing -- A late season win is better than early season, but all important competitions are assessed.

Colts Neck was 0-8 against ranked teams. Yet that should be the most important factor. In addition, they had around a 2:00 spread in their last race. Because they have Higginson running outstanding times, thats what brings down the team average. Team averages mean nothing. You could have a team with one or two runners under 18:00 and the rest near or above 20, but the team average would still be good. Many other teams could have broken that spread up.

The point is, none of the standards were used - thats whats throwing people off.

Since Nicole is now going to Nike U. and her problems with the Kranicks are well known, I can't help but wonder if that didn't have something to do with NTN not inviting them. Face it NY went 1-2 last year, doesn't that indicate you should have more NY teams? Even Track and Field News picked Saratoga for second. Yet, Saratoga gets nothing. something is fishy.

It is a great conspiracy theory.

radnor and toga were both in the top 20 in the latest harrier rankings. carondelet wasn't even in the top 25. what could account for this jump? or their selection over two teams of higher ranking?

NICOLE WHO

True 'Toga Blue wrote:

Since Nicole is now going to Nike U. and her problems with the Kranicks are well known, I can't help but wonder if that didn't have something to do with NTN not inviting them. Face it NY went 1-2 last year, doesn't that indicate you should have more NY teams? Even Track and Field News picked Saratoga for second. Yet, Saratoga gets nothing. something is fishy.

It is a great conspiracy theory.

Wow, True Toga Blue - you've really out done yourself this time! This could be the dumbest thing you've ever posted and you've posted some pretty dumb things. The pills must be beginning to take their toll. Maybe you should think about weaning before you make a complete ass out of yourself and all you have left is the kranicks. Good luck with that.

at this point, anything can be a reason for teams worthy of being at ntn not getting invites. so i say, go True 'Toga Blue! with the politics taking place, i certainly find this point a valid argument. debate away.