minimalist horror stories

Hi Runamook! How are you doing? YES, actually, I have found a very good alternative to the Hs. A Puma rep sent me a pair of Cortlandt XC flats, and I think they are wonderful! Pretty much the same feel as the Hs, except a much better sole for off-road running and a little cushier (still light at 6.5 oz. vs. 6.0 oz. for the Hs). That was my biggest problem with the Hs-- slipping on wet, muddy trails. The Cortlandt XCs have completely eliminated this problem. They feel great on roads too-- I've done several long runs in them. Same flexibility. I will add that I'd recommend wearing them with thin socks.... the tongue of the shoe is a bit hazardous and the seams can be bothersome (which I found out on my last sockless 21-miler!).

I was told a few years ago that I would have to settle for an occassional light jog in stiff heavily cushioned shoes with orthotics. I'd done some serious damage training in a pair of Nike Pegasus.

I started back training lightly on the rugged trails near my home but was for ever hurting the foot. One day I put on an old pair of xc racers and had no problems. I continued using these worn out old racers and found the foot handled things better once allowed to function normally. The only injury since was a muscle strain when I opted for a pair of light weight road shoes for a road race. I've since found that the worn out xc racers are perfect on the roads. As said elsewhere the more you can feel with your feet the more you cushion and the smoother you run.

Recovering from a long, good cross season with the kiddies!

Yeah, I'll check those cortlands out...If I really want cushioning I'll go for the original jazz, it's cheap and comfy, all good things. I'm going to just maintenance run this winter and spring, then put in a big base next summer in preparation for the big 50 in '08. A puma rep, you say! Ah to be young and fast.... good job!

I do 99% of my miles on the road and I have no trouble clocking 140-160mpw in minimalist shoes.

I use NB150s mainly and H-Streets for shorter runs.

I ran all my miles this year in an old pair of Asics xc flats, and H-streets. Ran 1 road marathon and 1 trail "marathon" (more like 50k, but whatever). About 2 weeks after the trail marathon (I started training hard only a week after the race)(stupid), I developed pain in my left ankle, around the deltoid ligament and arch.

I've been pretty much unable to train since mid-August, as it keeps coming back.

A PT tells me that I over-pronate and recommends that I get custom orthotics and stability trainers.

I really don't know what to think.

otg wrote:

...About 2 weeks after the trail marathon (I started training hard only a week after the race)(stupid), I developed pain in my left ankle, around the deltoid ligament and arch.....I really don't know what to think.

Quoted for emphasis.

what about the nike free, would they be all right, considering i have a slight knee problem, and run on the pavement on most of our runs. Last off season tried waffle racers but my calves were aching soo, i probably wont do that again

You're a f***ing liar.

Pantman wrote:

I do 99% of my miles on the road and I have no trouble clocking 140-160mpw in minimalist shoes.

I use NB150s mainly and H-Streets for shorter runs.

afdsdfd wrote:

You're a f***ing liar.

Pantman wrote:

I do 99% of my miles on the road and I have no trouble clocking 140-160mpw in minimalist shoes.

I use NB150s mainly and H-Streets for shorter runs.

I'm pretty sure that Pantman is legit.

Tuone Udaina wrote:

afdsdfd wrote:

You're a f***ing liar.

I'm pretty sure that Pantman is legit.

Yeah, I believe so too. I think he's been doing this for several years?

Just put in my longest long run ever today (in the Cortlandt XCs)-- 2 hr. 40 min.. ~104 miles for the week (highest ever). I've been on concrete/pavement a lot lately because of the rain, and my legs have actually felt very good, despite the increase in mileage. Easy jogging now for a few days....

quote]jaguar1 wrote:

otg wrote:

...About 2 weeks after the trail marathon (I started training hard only a week after the race)(stupid), I developed pain in my left ankle, around the deltoid ligament and arch.....I really don't know what to think.

Quoted for emphasis.[/quote]

Care to explain a bit more? Yeah, I made a dumb mistake, but 2 months of rest should take care of what seemed like a fairly minor injury, especially if it was unrelated to the shoes I was wearing.

The question I have is whether I should continue with the minimalist shoes, or go to something more cushioned/supportive.

Quoting what you quoted really doesn't say anything. Perhaps you will make yourself more clear.

While I fully believe in minimalist theory, bottom line is you can still get hurt. I find that when coming back from injury, I have to take some time in slightly more supportive shoes before returning to the lowest, flimsiest shoe I had been using.

Nope - totally true. And when I got back into running after some time out back in March I was 200lb - 1st 6 weeks were 100, 113, 120s, 130s, 140s, 150. So weight is not such a huge issue either.

I tend to run that mileage for a few months at a time and then life gets in the way for a few months, so it is not (sadly) year round.

A few folks on these boards know me and can back me up.

Jag--if a runner has ankle issues (really tib issues and peroneals) at what point of their recovery should said runner start with lighter shoes?

I've always run in lightweight trainers and raced in flats but blew out my ankles a month after my last race, doing "congo's". Now I'm into ortho's and more structured shoes.

tibs are toast

What do you mean by "tibs are toast"? Tib posterior, anterior, or both?

By wearing a lighter weight shoe, you enhance the natural motion of your foot. Depending on your natural biomechanics, this may be good OR bad. You'll also tend to land midfoot or slightly on the balls of your feet (metatarsal heads). This will cause greater stress on the plantar flexors (tib posterior, peroneals, gastroc, soleus, etc).

Because of this, I would be very cautious starting again with minimalist shoes. The stress placed on your legs will probably be too great if they are already injured.

I would work on walking barefoot or in flipflops for a while before you start running in pure minimalist shoes. You need to make sure the muscles are strong enough before you stress them with running.

Also, what do you mean by "blew out your ankles"? Was it a sprain? Muscle strain? More info would be helpful.

Good luck.

To the person whose PT wants them to be in supportive shoes and orthotics... that's what we learn in PT school. For the majority of people, we look for a quick fix to reduce pain and improve mobility/ADLs. It takes a PT who can think outside the box to work with your ideas (which you may have to convince yours to do). Most insurance companies and physicians (who refer the patients) do not agree with the "odd" concept of minimalism. Like I said, they're looking for a quick fix, not to solve the underlying problem. In their defense, the majority of people they see will not be able to wear minimalist shoes for daily life, let alone running.

MegaZord wrote:

Anyone try it and get hurt? Did you transition slowly enough?

Well, there was the one time when Richard Serra cut my brakes because he thought it was funny--that was pretty awful.

But then there was the time when Dan Flavin tried to shove one of his neon beams up my ass--that just sucked.

Can't decide which episode was worse, but Minimalism could be a bitch alright.

Good answer doc.

When I started back running some years ago, I was heavy, so I wore heavy motion-control shoes. I developed ankle pain and was prescribed orthotics. This made things worse. Via my own research and talking to some quacks out there, I started doing strengthening exercises and working in a bit of barefoot running. I worked my way down gradually (2-3 years) to the old Nike Ekidens and some spikeless cross country shoes. Lately I've moved to some more cushioned neutral trainers, because I am still a bit of a big guy. I have not had an injury of note for two years, though I rarely run more than 60-70 MPW.

PS. I know Pantman and he ain't BSing.

Doc: My current worst problem is the right posterior tib--a lightly chronic problem has turned tightly acute.

"Blowing out my ankles" to me meant the PTs on both sides. But the original 'blowout' manifested itself in a sprained peroneus longus. 2 weeks later I was running again, albeit with rigid orthotics.

I have always landed midsole and, until after the ill-advised side-to-side-running-after-a-marathon incident, had had no problems training in flats.

thanks for the advice--I think your point is to gradually transition away from built-ups to lightweight trainers to minimals, right?

Absolutely. Try walking around barefoot as you transition. If you do feel calf and especially Achilles pain, there are exercises you can do to strengthen all around the calf. Just google 'achilles tendonitis' and exercises and you'll find a lot of good ones.

PS. I'm not a doctor, I just played one on Lost in Space.