DEMOGRAPHICS OF DOPERS (By Gender, Race, Event, Coach, Sponsor, Agent)

Let it be known to all that Mouse Holloway did coach John Capel but that in know way means he's involved with doping. John Capel couldn't stop smoking marijuana. To me, Capel is a clean athlete.

Clearly an additional factor is the ability of a test to detect an abuser with a degree of reliability required to take action. For example, how easy is it to detect someone abusing with EPO or blood transfusions (distance runners) relative to someone taking steroids, testosterone or HGH (sprinters and throwers)?

I am sure WADAs databases would make interesting reading. How many athletes almost fail a drug test? I would be surprised if there weren't more 2-4 to 1 ratios of testosterone to epi from the results of testing than would be predicted from statistical variation in the male population. Also, how many times is a peak below LOD or LOQ found when testing for banned substances. Something is probably there - but cannot be verified with the required level of certainty.

the other bit of dodgy scientific practice is the assumption that a failure on an A sample can be cancelled out by a passing B sample. if any readers work in any scientific discipline they'll be aware that if you get a different result the second time a test is conducted it doesn't automatically cancel out the first result. The reason for the difference must be investigated before any conclusion can be reached. In a case like Bernard Lagat's there isn't enough data released to prove innocence or guilt, but there is enough data to cause suspicion. If, in such cases, the actual results were made public (and it would be standard practice for a lab to investigate why they got different results for the two samples - at least if they were very different)it could possibly explain a lot.

Jaycee Are wrote:

Let it be known to all that Mouse Holloway did coach John Capel but that in know way means he's involved with doping. John Capel couldn't stop smoking marijuana. To me, Capel is a clean athlete.

So Capel is a dope, but not a doper.

Not sure he belongs on this list unless someone can show pot is a performance enhancer in sprinting.

Capel seems to use performance de-enhancing drugs (pdd's)

SO WEJO WHY WAS MY POST DELETED?

I said SMALL NUMBER STATISTICS ... ALL YOUR EFFORT BUT IT IS STILL A WEAK POST from an argumentative point of view.

and my arguments about doping being more effective for sprints and certain events is still valid.

Just in case anyone cares. I knew someone who ran for Smith in the early 90's. Smith was vehement his athletes not take drugs. He said that in the 60's his contemporaries and he tried steroids before knowing the risks involved - and before they were banned. Once he found out the risks, he stopped and has always told his athletes to saty away from PED's. I guess it's possible he changed his mind in ten years but seems out of character for him.

This was pretty interesting. A few things I'd like to point out:

As a general rule of thumb: Power and speed events benefit more from testosterone manipulation than endurance events. While steroids can help endurance athletes recover, the cost is larger muscles that demand more oxygen on those long runs, rides, etc.

Testosterone is relatively easy to test for. EPO and the new blood doping techniques are a lot more difficult and expensive. This may mean that disproportionate number of dirty endurance athletes sneak through the testing process.

On a slightly different note, my neighbor was telling me about a research paper on Lance Armstrong. In it the doctors claim that the chemotherapy he received to fight his cancer may have helped his riding career. Before cancer he had too much muscle. Chemo destroys muscle tissue. (For those who are unwaware, your body develops new muscle tissue through your early teens. Then, how you develop it determines how you look). With less muscle tissue after Chemo, Lance was able to take advantage of his abnormally large lung capacity and heart function. Essentially, chemo allowed his body to process oxygen more efficiently.

Adam

OK, but how would you explain the positive drug tests of Inger Miller, Larry Wade, Torri Edwards, and Mickey Grimes?

luv2run wrote:

So Capel is a dope, but not a doper.

Not sure he belongs on this list unless someone can show pot is a performance enhancer in sprinting.

Marijuana is not a performance enhancing drug, but it commonly used as a masking agent for other performance enhancing drugs.

This is a good point. I am not going to speculate as the whether Armstrong was clean or not. What I do think is that after he was treated for cancer he had found the preceise body habitus (height: weight: muscle mass: lung heart capacity ratio)that allowed him to dominate an elite field. Armstrong was heavier pre cancer..about 10 pounds heavier in muscle mass. He clearly was an elite athlete precancer but the added power he gained from more muscle mass did not counterbalance with the heavier weight (and less endurance) needed for the muscle. His post cancer habitus displayed less muscle and less power, but the added endurance from the lower muscle mass compensated for this more and made him a better rider overall

First of all, I'm just speaking from my personal experience with John Smith and his athletes. All the athletes I knew were colleegiate, not pro. Second of all, I'm not counting Miller. I'm sure there were times in my career when I would have tested positive for caffeine. I drink the stuff by the pot. Not so I would run faster, but because I'm addicted to the stuff. I consider caffeine and steroids different crimes. As to the rest, I allow the possibility Smith condones and even promotes drug use with his pro athletes. I doubt it though. I'm thinking they went out on their own. For instance, Smith could not stop Henry Thomas from doing what he was going to do. Anything is possible though. However, if anyone looks at the marks of Stve Lewis, Danny Everett, Kevin Young and Andre Phillips, I would put money that they were clean when they ran.

I am amazed to learn how common testerone is. Of the 103 failed drug tests administered by the NCAA between 8/2002 and 6/2003, Testerone (greater than 6:1 ratio) accounted for 20% (23 positives) of the failures. Only Nandrolone (30 positives) was more common.

August 2002-June 2003

Samples Collected Samples Collected Samples Collected

Event/Program/Sport Exit and RS Testing Championships/Bowls Year Round Positive Cases

Baseball, II 48 127 1 boldenone

1 nandrolone

1 no show

Baseball, III 48

Basketball, Men's I 1 64 1 amphetamine

Basketball, Women's I 64

Fencing, Nat. Coll. 12

Football, I-AA 100 1 amphetamine

2 marijuana

Football, I-A 111 1 amphetamine

2 marijuana

Football, I 13 4713 7 boldenone

17 nandrolone

1 hydrochlorothiazide

4 stanozolol

10 testosterone > 6:1

2 ephedrine

5 methandienone

Football, II 6 48 2144 3 boldenone

11 nandrolone

3 stanozolol

11 testosterone > 6:1

2 methandienone

1 methylandrostandiol

Football, III 192 1 nandrolone

2 testosterone > 6:1

1 cocaine

Gymnastics, Men Nat. Coll. 8

Gymnastics, Women Nat. Coll. 15

Ice Hockey, Men's III 40 1 ephedrine

Indoor Track, I 103 1 ephedrine

1 methylphenidate

2 marijuana

Outdoor Track, I 139 1 marijuana

Soccer, Women I 20 1 amphetamine

Soccer, Women II 80 1 amphetamine

Softball, III 1

Swimming, Men's I 69

Swimming, Women's I 70

Swimming, M & W II 146 1 amphetamine

Track, Men's and Women's I 2248 1 boldenone

2 testosterone > 6:1

Volleyball, Women's I 48

Volleyball, Men's I 1

Wrestling, I 40

Wrestling, II 19

Wrestling, III 29 1 ephedrine

Misc. Single Tests 24

Total Samples 22 1513 9256 103

Interesting thing about that:

Cross-Country= 0 failed

Indoor Track= 3/4 illegal drugs

Outdoor Track= 1/1 illegal drug

Orlando Sucks wrote:

Interesting thing about that:

Cross-Country= 0 failed

Indoor Track= 3/4 illegal drugs

Outdoor Track= 1/1 illegal drug

lol @ doping in cross country.

never!

Just wanted to bump and say this is a great letsrun thread. Actual knowledge is great.

In the Demographic of Dopers 2004 suspensions section, my name was listed as Mickey Grimes' agent. This listing was a mistake since I have never been Mickey's agent.

Per this USATF.org webpage, the bio on Mickey Grimes states his agent is “Kermit Foster”.

http://www.usatf.com/athletes/bios/oldBios/2002/Grimes_Mickey.asp

I thought the USATF bio pages on elite athletes were trustworthy enough to use. Please contact USATF and find out why they are saying you, Kermit Foster, are the agent for Mickey Grimes and post any reply you receive.

I’ve tired to be very careful, but I think you will agree my mistake here is an excuseable one. Could there be two Kermit Fosters?

There is a college coach who used to train with J. Smith post-collegiately. He left when Smith told him he had tapped out his talent and gave him a list of doctors who could help him. I wish this coach had enough balls to step forward and go public with what he knows.

I’m the original poster for this thread. Someone questioned my breakdown of doping suspensions by event. He/she thought the throws events (20% of total suspensions) would have more doping suspensions than the distance events (15% of total suspensions). My reply answered that question, but for some reason the questioner’s post and my reply were deleted from this thread. So WEJO, if you delete this post again, please post your reason for doing so.

----------------------------------------------------

To start off, I stated:

20 DOPERS WITH 2+ YEAR SUSPENSIONS BY EVENT (2004-2006):

12 (60%) in sprints / 4 (20%) in throws / 3 (15%) in distance / 1 (5%) in jumps.

To understand this better you also need to know the number of athletes competing in those 4 event groups. I don’t know those exact numbers, but in looking at all 250 of the “shoe company” sponsored athletes who participated in the 2006 USATF outdoor championships, I came up with the following:

80 competed in sprints / 120 in distance / 36 in jumps / 14 in throws

My original post probably gave the impression that the throw athletes (20%) and distance athletes (15%) are about as likely to dope. While the number of throw athletes who have been caught doping is similar to the number of distance athletes who have been caught doping, there are 8.6 times (120/14) more elite “shoe company” sponsored athletes competing in the distance events.

So I’ll now normalize my findings and conclude by saying:

Over a 2½ year period, this is roughly percentage of all elite “shoe company” sponsored athletes who have had a 2+ year doping sanction issued by the USADA:

15% sprints / 3% distance / 3% jumps / 28% throws

DISCLAIMER: Please note that this is based on just 20 serious doping sanctions since 2003. For a more accurate analysis, I could (if I had more time) have gone back 6 years so my total number of sanctions (distributed by event) would be more statistically significant. I could also have contacted USATF to possibly obtain a more accurate distribution of elite pro athletes by event. My analysis of “sanctions by event” isn’t bad, just not as accurate as I’d like. The above percentages should be roughly correct, but they certainly aren’t exactly correct.