Why can't Ritz run sub 13?

I dont think Rome is the best place for a PR. the race is stacked up front with guys presumably going under 12:50. this is far from ideal for him. he will probabyl be stuck in no man's land unfortunately so the race won't indicate anythign about his form. if he pulls out a sub13:10 in those conditions it will be very impressive.

LOST wrote:

I dont think Rome is the best place for a PR. the race is stacked up front with guys presumably going under 12:50. this is far from ideal for him. he will probabyl be stuck in no man's land unfortunately so the race won't indicate anythign about his form. if he pulls out a sub13:10 in those conditions it will be very impressive.

Agree. It's all a matter of which physical phenomenon will be greater - the hoover effect or the DMZ effect?

he's just about squeezed out most of his potential....10k, marathon, X-C and road racing are his best options....esp. the latter two.

Here is what I think.Ritz has two years until the 2008 trials.So, with the amount of volume he already puts in along with the issue about him getting injured with more speed work, he needs to explore all of his options.What better time to run a fall marathon to get his feet wet?As the great John Ngugi once said, "Don't Waste Good Time".

Frank R wrote:

Ritz running the marathon makes about as much sense as Webb's 10k run earlier this season. Both these talented runners are headed for self destruction.

It is total madness.

Great dichotomous metaphor!

malmo wrote:

LOST wrote:

I dont think Rome is the best place for a PR. the race is stacked up front with guys presumably going under 12:50. this is far from ideal for him. he will probabyl be stuck in no man's land unfortunately so the race won't indicate anythign about his form. if he pulls out a sub13:10 in those conditions it will be very impressive.

Agree. It's all a matter of which physical phenomenon will be greater - the hoover effect or the DMZ effect?

Flagpole Willy wrote:

1) Ritz has already run pretty much the equivalent of a 4:00 mile, and he did that a few years ago now and could almost assuredly run sub 4:00 now.

BULLSHIT.

just because it's a few years down the road DOES NOT MEAN HE GOT FASTER IN THE MILE.

he's been working strength..//not "speed" if you can a mile speed. ritz is DIRT SLOW on a world stage.

he tops out at 13:05-7 lifetime.

malmo - what is your opinion on the chances of Ritz breaking 13:00 in the 5000 meters? I am curious because you have a lot of knowledge and experience

he is a very talented, but 'stylistic stiff', much like Salazar was....no sub 13 in the 5k for him....but fast 10k and marathons are in his future.

For my edification, enjoyment and educational information, could someone with far more internet research skills than I please post the top 10 or so American all-time 5K times? And for good measure, the same for the 10K? Thanks.

There was once a guy named Carlos Lopes who did his speedwork the same way (400M reps in not much faster than 63-64) and he became Olympic Champ and World Cross Champ among his many accolades.

I would argue that at this point he has more potential...

Whether or not he will run sub 13 for the 5 or 2:07 for the marathon only time will tell however in my book he is young and has a great shot.

My 2 cents of course...

[quote]Not quite clear wrote:

Hudson and Ritz are of the view that Ritz's injuries have been caused by speed work--therefore, he runs very little on the track under 64. If his training continues in this way, it will be very hard to run 63 per lap for 5k. I still think in two or three years he can run sub 13:00, but I wouldn't be surprised if he gets only as low as, say, mid 13:00s.[quote]Flagpole Willy wrote:

quote]

Add:Rob deCastella,8x400's/hill reps/volume;= 2:07:51

Ritz can do it. I didn't believe it a year ago, but I do now.

Did anyone see his 13:16?? The pace was all over the place and I think he still closed with a 58 which is fast for him. The odds are against it happening this year (because of marathon training plans soon), but with a good string of solid injury free training, I have no doubts he can pull it off. Its just going to depend on whether or not he wants to focus all his energy on it.

malmo wrote:

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

BK RAN 13:02 WHEN HE WAS STILL 23 YEARS OLD.

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/athlete%3D1377/

.

Actually Kennedy was almost 24 (less than 30 days to his birthday) when he ran that 13:02 (he ran 13:05 two weeks before that). He was 39 days short of being 23 when he ran 13:14.91

And your point is??? Seriously Malmo, of all people I wouldn't think YOU'D be the one to try and "correct" an accurate statement that I made (you being the "precise" type and all).

* I KNOW he was almost 24, but.....he was "still 23" when he ran it. Right?? That's what I wrote, so no "actually" about it.

* Ritz turns 24 at the end of this year. So he too is nearing 24. In short, Ritz is pretty much the same age (a difference of a few months) this year as Kennedy was in 1994 and when he ran his 13:02. Will Ritz run 13:02 this year??

* Your last statement says that Kennedy was 22 when he ran 13:14. Flagpole said he as Twenty-FIVE when he ran that time. FW was waaaay off.

Bottom line: Flagpole was way off on his Kennedy stats (for the umpteenth time), and I was accurate with mine.

(and interestingly, someone who quoted my #'s and celebrated Flagpole's lack of accuracy had their post removed. Interesting. So much for the crazy 'Flagpole as moderator' theories {at the very least he complains like crazy about posts about him. How ELSE to explain the removal of a post where someone simply says "I love it when FW is proven wrong." IF that is grounds for a deleted post, then there should be about 5 posts left on this entire site. Hey Flagpole, care to comment on my correction of you??? I haven't heard from you yet. And care to comment on the deleted post? It'd be great to hear from you. Sorry to rain on your " Ritz has been better than Kennedy at every age" parade......AGAIN. } )

Sir Lance-alot wrote:

And your point is??? Seriously Malmo, of all people I wouldn't think YOU'D be the one to try and "correct" an accurate statement that I made (you being the "precise" type and all).

Which is exactly what I did.

geodon wrote:

For my edification, enjoyment and educational information, could someone with far more internet research skills than I please post the top 10 or so American all-time 5K times? And for good measure, the same for the 10K? Thanks.

5000 meters

12:58.21 Robert Kennedy Zurich SUI 14 Aug 1996

12:58.75 ----2 Kennedy Stockholm SWE 08 Jul 1996

12:59.29 Bernard Lagat Berlin GER 04 Sep 2005

13:01.15 Sydney Maree Oslo NOR 27 Jul 1985

13:02.93 ----3 Kennedy Oslo NOR 22 Jul 1994

13:03.37 ----4 Kennedy Zurich SUI 16 Aug 1995

13:03.57 ----5 Kennedy Berlin GER 01 Sep 1998

13:04.04 ----6 Kennedy Milano ITA 07 Sep 1996

13:05.18 ----7 Kennedy Rome ITA 14 Jul 1998

13:05.54 ----8 Kennedy Zurich SUI 11 Aug 1999

10

13:05.93 ----9 Kennedy Villeneuve d'Ascq FRA 08 Jul 1994

13:06.12 ----10 Kennedy Berlin GER 30 Aug 1996

13:06.62 ----11 Kennedy Stockholm SWE 07 Jul 1997

13:07.71 ----12 Kennedy Zurich SUI 13 Aug 1997

13:08.43 ----13 Kennedy Rome ITA 07 Jul 1999

13:09.64 ----14 Kennedy Oslo NOR 21 Jul 1995

13:10.19 Adam Goucher Heusden BEL 23 Jul 2005

13:10.86 Alan Webb Berlin GER 04 Sep 2005

13:11.25 ----2 Goucher Zurich SUI 11 Aug 1999

13:11.77 Mebrahtom Keflezighi Heusden BEL 05 Aug 2000

20

13:11.77 Tim Broe Oslo NOR 29 Jul 2005

13:11.93 Alberto Salazar Stockholm SWE 06 Jul 1982

13:12.14 ----15 Kennedy Eugene OR USA 26 May 1996

13:12.35 ----16 Kennedy Atlanta GA USA 03 Aug 1996

13:12.76 ----2 Broe Carson CA USA 24 Jun 2005

13:12.91 Matt Centrowitz Eugene OR USA 05 Jun 1982

13:12.98 ----17 Kennedy Zurich SUI 17 Aug 1994

13:13.32 Abdihakim Abdirahman London ENG 22 Jul 2005

13:13.49 Bruce Bickford Oslo NOR 27 Jun 1985

13:13.75 ----2 Abdirahman Oslo NOR 29 Jul 2005

30

13:13.84 ----2 Sydney Maree Brussels BEL 25 Aug 1989

13:13.93 ----3 Broe London ENG 22 Jul 2005

13:14.32 ----2 Lagat (Indianapolis) '06

13:14.62 ----3 Maree Rome ITA 10 Sep 1986

13:14.71 ----3 Lagat Walnut CA USA 15 Apr 2005

13:14.80 Bill McChesney Zurich SUI 18 Aug 1982

13:14.91 ----18 Kennedy Oslo NOR 10 Jul 1993

13:15.00 Matt Tegenkamp (Indianopolis) '06

13:15.06 Marty Liquori Dusseldorf GER 04 Sep 1977

13:15.07 ----4 Maree Oslo NOR 04 Jul 1987

13:15.33 Ian Dobson Carson CA USA 24 Jun 2005

13:15.39 ----19 Kennedy Melbourne AUS 25 Feb 1998

40

13:15.44 Doug Padilla Helsinki FIN 04 Jul 1985

13:15.72 ----2 Salazar Eugene OR USA 05 Jun 1982

13:15.77 ----2 McChesney Eugene OR USA 16 May 1981

13:15.85 ----5 Maree Hengelo NED 14 Aug 1988

13:15.86 Jim Spivey Berlin GER 30 Aug 1994

13:16.02 Dan Browne Heusden BEL 31 Jul 2004

13:16.03 Ryan Hall Carson CA USA 24 Jun 2005

13:16.06 ----2 Liquori Zurich SUI 24 Aug 1977

13:16.21 ----3 Liquori Stockholm SWE 04 Jul 1978

13:16.42 ----2 Padilla Indianapolis IN USA 16 Jun 1985

13:16.61 Dathan Ritzenhein (Indianpolis) '06

13:17.44 John Gregorek (1987) #19

13:18.19 Ralph King (1982) #20

13:18.50 Nicholas Rogers (2000) #21

13:18.54 Mark Nenow (1984) #22

13:19.1m Craig Virgin (1980) #23

13:19.22 Rudy Chapa (1979) #24

13:19.37 Steve Plasencia (1985) #25

13:19.40 Duncan MacDonald (1976) #26

13:19.50 Todd Williams (1995) #27

13:19.60 Ryan Wilson (1999) #28

13:19.62 Paul Cummings (1982) #29

13:19.73 Jim Hill (1983) #30

13:20.19 John Trautmann (1992) #31

13:20.49 Joe Falcon (1990) #32

13:20.57 Jorge Torres (2005) #33

13:21.11 Jonathon Riley (2004) #34

13:21.60 Christopher Fox (1983) #35

13:21.87 Steve Prefontaine (1974) #36

13:22.23 Dathan Ritzenhein (2005) #37

13:23.20 Richard Buerkle (1980) #38

13:23.38 Paul Geis (1974) #39

13:23.57 Dan Henderson (1985) #40

13:23.60 Matt Giusto (1993) #41

13:23.72 Mark Coogan (1995) #42

13:24.55 Greg Whiteley (1993) #43

13:24.78 Reuben Reina (1991) #44

13:25.19 Louis Luchini Jr. (2004) #45

13:25.36 Mattew Tegenkamp (2005) #46

13:25.61 Bill Krohn (1985) #47

13:25.70 Aaron Ramirez (1991) #48

13:25.75 Alan Culpepper (2005) #49

13:25.75 Gerard Donakowski (1986) #50

13:25.87 Ed Moran (2005) #51

13:26.34 Thomas Hunt (1981) #52

13:26.62 Frank Shorter (1977) #53

13:26.79 Vince Draddy (1985) #54

13:26.80 Bolota Asmerom (2002) #55

13:26.81 Brian Baker (1996) #56

13:27.05 Marc Davis (2000) #57

13:27.06 Matthew Lane (2004) #58

13:27.31 Bradley Hauser (2000) #59

13:27.41 Don Clary (1986) #60

13:27.52 Clint Wells (2002) #61

13:27.72 Steve Lacy (1984) #62

13:28.00 Terry Brahm (1990) #63

13:28.24 Daniel Browne (1998) #64

13:28.29 Andre Williams (2000) #65

13:28.41 Dan Nelson (1993) #66

13:28.99 Raymond Appenheimer (2000) #67

13:29.25 Ronnie Harris (1996) #68

13:29.4m George Young (1972) #69

13:30.32 Brian Abshire (1992) #70

13:30.39 Steve Scott (1987) #71

13:30.44 Peter Sherry (1993) #72

13:30.51 John Easker (1986) #73

13:30.57 Todd Harbour (1984) #74

13:30.63 Jason Stewart (2000) #75

13:30.79 James Sapienza (1985) #76

13:30.93 Tom Smith (1984) #77

13:30.95 Dan Aldridge (1985) #78

13:30.98 Jeff Wells (1978) #79

13:32.15 Bill Donakowski (1979) #80

13:32.15 Richard Boulet (2000) #81

13:32.27 Daniel Lincoln (2004) #82

13:32.33 Garry Bjorklund (1976) #83

13:32.34 Ray Wicksell (1986) #84

13:32.46 Ryan Kirkpatrick (2004) #85

13:32.47 Kelly Jensen (1984) #86

13:32.50 Kevin Ryan (1984) #87

13:32.52 Ed Eyestone (1984) #88

13:32.5m Jerald Jones (1984) #89

13:32.61 Jim Farmer (1992) #90

13:32.7m Steve Ortiz (1985) #91

13:32.92 Jim Cooper (1986) #92

13:33.02 Peter Julian (1998) #93

13:33.08 Shannon Butler (1992) #94

13:33.17 Eric Savoth (2004) #95

13:33.2m John Gregorio (1976) #96

13:33.2m Ted Castaneda (1975) #97

13:33.32 Daniel Dillon (1980) #98

13:33.37 Ross Donoghue (1984) #99

13:33.39 Greg Lautenslager (1987) #100

13:33.91 Pat Porter (1988) #101

13:33.9a Douglas Brown (1978) #102

13:34.0m Alan Scharsu (1985) #103

13:34.0m Greg Fredericks (1972) #104

13:34.30 Anthony Famiglietti (2002) #105

13:34.50 Robbie Perkins (1979) #106

13:34.61 Matt Gabrielson (2004) #107

13:34.8m Ivan Huff (1984) #108

13:35.00 Ryan Shay (2002) #109

13:35.08 James Menon (1998) #110

13:35.0m Donald Kardong (1976) #111

13:35.12 Brian Carlton (1985) #112

13:35.32 Matt Withrow (2005) #113

13:35.33 Tom Wysocki (1981) #114

13:35.3m Jon Sinclair (1984) #115

13:35.44 Greg Meyer (1983) #116

13:35.4m James Crawford (1978) #117

13:35.50 Kenneth Martin (1992) #118

13:35.58 Michael Donnelly (2004) #119

13:35.59 Matt Gonzalez (2004) #120

13:35.74 Philip Price (2000) #121

13:35.9a Dirk Lakeman (1985) #122

13:36.0m Dan Middleman (1996) #123

13:36.17 Bob Henes (1997) #124

13:36.32 Chad Johnson (2004) #125

13:36.3m Bob Snyder (1978) #126

13:36.47 John Scherer (1991) #127

13:36.68 Randy Melancon (1981) #128

13:36.68 Tom Ansberry (1996) #129

13:36.7m Marc Hunter (1979) #130

13:36.83 Gary Stolz (1998) #131

13:36.88 Keith Brantly (1992) #132

13:36.8m Kevin King (1986) #133

13:36.93 Jay Marden (1988) #134

13:36.9m Grant Whitney (1986) #135

13:36.9m Herb Lindsay (1984) #136

13:36.9m Mike Novelli (1978) #137

13:37.04 Troy Billings (1986) #138

13:37.08 Brendan Rodgers (2004) #139

13:37.14 Tom McArdle (2002) #140

13:37.20 Erin Rankin (1984) #141

13:37.2m Kris Herdt (1987) #142

13:37.33 Christopher Graff (2002) #143

13:37.55 Chris Solinsky (2005) #144

13:37.62 Mike Blackmoore (1987) #145

13:37.66 James Carney (2004) #146

13:37.68 Mark Menefee (2004) #147

13:37.69 Keith Dowling (1995) #148

13:37.89 Tim Hacker (1998) #149

13:37.91 Galen Rupp (2004) #150

13:38.01 Lyle Weese (2004) #151

13:38.09 Bill Taylor (1992) #152

13:38.0m Greg Beardsley (1986) #153

13:38.2m James "Jim" Ryun (1972) #154

13:38.4m Brad Erickstad (1985) #155

13:38.4m Ed Spinney (1983) #156

13:38.52 Ryan Bak (2004) #157

13:38.6m Scott Fry (1987) #158

geodon wrote:

And for good measure, the same for the 10K? Thanks.

27:13.98 Mebrahtom Keflezighi (Palo Alto) '01

27:20:15 ----2 Keflezighi (Palo Alto) '02

27:20.56 Mark Nenow (Bruxelles) '86

27:22.81 Abdi Abdirahman (Hengelo) '06

27:24.10 ----3 Keflezighi (Palo Alto) '04

27:25.61 Alberto Salazar (Oslo) '82

27:28.80 ----2 Nenow (Oslo) '86

27:29.06 ----2 Salazar (Paris) '82

27:29.16 Craig Virgin (Paris) '80

27:30.00 ----3 Salazar (Eugene) '82

27:31.34 Todd Williams (Knoxville) '95

27:33.93 Alan Culpepper (Palo Alto) '01

27:34.24 ----2 Abdirahman (Palo Alto) '04

27:34.72 Alan Webb (Palo Alto) '06

27:35.65 Dathan Ritzenhein (Palo Alto) '06

27:36.7 -----3 Nenow (Walnut) '82

27:37.17 Bruce Bickford (Stockholm) '85

27:37.45 Bob Kennedy (Palo Alto) '04

27:37.74 Anthony Famiglietti (Palo Alto) '06

27:38.37 -----2 Kennedy (Palo Alto) '99

27:38.50 -----2 Ritzenhein (Palo Alto) '04

27:39.27 -----2 Culpepper (Palo Alto) '99

27:39.4 ------2 Virgin (Walnut) '79

27:40.37 -----2 Williams (Oslo) '93

27:40.56 -----4 Nenow (Stockholm) '84

27:40.69 -----4 Salazar (Roma) '81

27:40.85 -----5 Nenow (Stockholm) '85

27:41.05 Ed Eyestone (Walnut) 85

27:41.68 -----4 Keflezighi (Palo Alto) '02

27:41.90 -----3 Culpepper (Palo Alto) '03

27:42.19 Dan Browne (Palo Alto) '04

27:42.64 -----6 Nenow (Bruxelles) '89

27:42.83 -----3 Abdirahman (Palo Alto) 02

27:43.6 Steve Prefontaine (Eugene) '74

27:43.7 Paul Cummings (Walnut) '84

27:45.20 Steve Plasencia (Seatlle) '90

27:45.5 ------5 Salazar (Walnut) '84

27:45.61 -----3 Virgin (Eugene) '80

27:45.91 Frank Shorter (London) '75

27:46.17 -----4 Abdirahman (Sydney) '00

27:46.80 Pat Porter (Walnut) '88

27:46.9 Gary Bjorklund (Walnut) '84

27:47.0 Tony Sandoval (Walnut) '84

27:47.04 -----2 Browne (Palo Alto) '02

27:47.25 Bill McChesney (Oslo) '81

27:47.91 -----2 Bickford (Bruxelles) '84

27:48.09 -----3 Culpepper (Palo Alto) '02

27:48.94 -----7 Nenow (Stockholm) '87

27:53.0 Chris Fox 1995

27:53.1 Meyer 1983

27:54.19 Doug Brown 1978

27:55.17 Nick Rogers 2000

27:55.23 Jim Hill 1983

27:56.90 Clint Wells 2002

27:58.02 Brad Hauser 2002

27:58.41 G. Donakowski 1986

27:59.1 Thomas Hunt 1982

27:59.35 Butler 1991

27:59.70 Ramirez 1991

27:59.72 Ian Dobson 2005

Now you are not being very clear at all.

What "exactly" did you do..... " "correct" an accurate statement that I made" ?? You can't correct something that is not wrong. You CAN add more info to that statement, which sure, you did.

But by saying "actually", it made it sound like you were correcting me. Wouldn't a better word choice have been: "to be fair, Kennedy was almost 24", or "while it is true Kennedy was 23..", or "just for the record, Kennedy was almost 24," or something to that effect? (did I use "effect" correctly there? I know you that effect/affect usage is a pet peeve of yours! :-) )

It would be like one saying: "Malmo held the AR in the steeple", and then having me reply- "actually, he only held it for a little while."

Right?

Get some rest Lance-a-lot.

Thanks for the lists, Malmo.