im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.
im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.
jeff tallon wrote:
im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.
So why didn't he?
I understand him not running an 8 against Kipketer, but he could easily have gotten into a paced 8 set up just for him.
Pacifico wrote:
Kirsner72 wrote:The first part of your post strikes me as very realistic; El G raced the way he did for an obvious reason--he did not have great basic speed for a 1500 runner; unlike the champions past who did (Snell/Ryun/Coe/Ovett, etc.), he was a doped strength runner who needed to run the kick out of faster men, hence taking it up with 600-800 to go.
But 12:30 for 5000 is fantasy land, unless they chose to bump his hematocrit up to sludge-like levels, and hope he doesn't die in the attempt.
Agreed. I suspect he couldn't have broken 48 or 1:44. People extrapolate his 400 & 800 ability based on what he did in 1500's and how he closed in them, without adding into the equation the fact he was almost certainly doped to the gills on EPO and whatever other combination. Had he run some competitive 800's the athletic fraternity would have been more aware of the fake he was. He didn't have the speed of some of the greats, but his endurance was just too good to be true or natural.
This is the most plausible reason El G never raced the 800. Never raced the 1,000 either.
messi wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.
So why didn't he?
Even if he could, Why would he?
ventolin^3 wrote:
Pacifico wrote:Agreed. I suspect he couldn't have broken 48 or 1:44that is utter nonsense
did you not see baala, a primary 1500 guy who ran 1'43.1 in his 1st serious elite 800 ???
or how about webb, who had never broken 1'46 before '07 & then shattered it down to 1'43.8 in his 1st serious elite 800 ???!!!
- even Asbel who runs 800 of primary 1500 ran 1'43.1 as a raw kid at 19y
- maloofi with 1'43.5pb
- cram, a primary 1500 guy runs 1'42.8 with ~ 5m extra on bends in a tactical race !!!
you seriously so clueless as to believe baala & webb were superior athletes to hicham ???
do you think if cram coud run 1'42+ off 3'29+ ability that hicham was not capable of breaking 1'44 ???
People extrapolate his 400 & 800 ability based on what he did in 1500's and how he closed in them, without adding into the equation the fact he was almost certainly doped to the gills on EPO and whatever other combination
utterly clueless
he finished 3'26.00 with 53.2 !!!
if you think that can be done off 1'44+ speed then you have no clue about running
Had he run some competitive 800's the athletic fraternity would have been more aware of the fake he was
nonsense
you think he was doping
you so inept to believe doping woud only help 1500 but not 800 ???
he didn't run 800s as he knew he was going to get beat by Kip & he didn't want his invincible aura dented at any distance in late-'90s
He didn't have the speed of some of the greats, but his endurance was just too good to be true or natural
utter nonsense
he didn't have intrinsic 800 speed of baala/webb/cram/laloo/chirchir/Asbel ???
Lets throw Willis's 1:43.XX in there.
Let's throw in there (official times)...
Bernard Lagat 1:46.00
Silas Kiplagat: 1:46.75
You know that El Guerrouj and Lagat ran the last 800 in the 2004 Oly 1500 in 1:46. But you do not know that they can go any faster. Dr. Li says that he doesn't even know what Lagat's 400 time is and they don't train for it (nor did El Guerrouj). These days the 800 is much more about 400 speed, but the 1500 is more about aerobic power.
messi wrote:
jeff tallon wrote:im not sure about his leg speed,but its a fair bet he could have popped out a 1.43 800 metres,or thereabouts,and perhaps even a 400,in 46.7.sub 47,anyway.
So why didn't he?
The training for the 400m is too different, and the 800m is just as similar to the 400m as it is the mile. Racing a 400m is the best way to train for a 400m, the anaerobic intensity is too high to train at all season or every day. Hichem would basically choosing to peak for not his main event, to be prepared enough to handle the event without injury risk, slashing mileage and upping intensity of track workouts.
He wasn't a very large built guy. So doping or no doping (I personally think many pro runners dope but innocent until proven) he is not going to run a 800m or 400m as well as the mile. Doping is irrelevant to the discussion as it's a simple question of physics. I mean, there are some light 800m specialists but 5 9 128? he's not going to slow as much from the 800m to mile, himself being a miler.
coach d wrote:
These days the 800 is much more about 400 speed, but the 1500 is more about aerobic power.
There is no such thing as "these days". Human physiology has not changed. You are free to run either race relying on 400 speed or aerobic power just as you've always been free to.
Agree with 400 of 48 but think he could have run 1:43 low for 800 in a paced race. Basically times his coach stated, and despite what Ventolin says, the athletes and coaches know more about their 400/800 ability than he does.
Cram has said he ran a 48.1 for 400 in training at the height of his peers in 85. I don't believe EL G was as fast as Cram over 400 or 800. And El G's coach clearly agrees.
The Moroccan was clearly an endurance based miler, as the vast majority were during his era of undoubted EPO use. It would have affected his 800 time marginally, meaning he was probably more of a 1:43 high athlete naturally, but it would have meant a 2-3 sec improvement in the 1500. I don't believe he was naturally any better than Cram over the mile, just had undetectable drugs which made the difference.
jjjjj wrote:I understand him not running an 8 against Kipketer, but he could easily have gotten into a paced 8 set up just for him
it's question of $$$
hicham was a money-making machine & it wouda been very very hard for him to get a promoter to pay him the same appearance fee to run a 800 as he got for a 1500 even if he told them he woud promise them a 1'42+
they woud just claim that they weren't interested in seeing a 1'42+ when Kip has gone 1'41-flat & wanted to see a 3'26+ or better for him & only pay serious appearance money for 1500/mile
messi wrote:
Pacifico wrote:Agreed. I suspect he couldn't have broken 48 or 1:44. People extrapolate his 400 & 800 ability based on what he did in 1500's and how he closed in them, without adding into the equation the fact he was almost certainly doped to the gills on EPO and whatever other combination. Had he run some competitive 800's the athletic fraternity would have been more aware of the fake he was. He didn't have the speed of some of the greats, but his endurance was just too good to be true or natural.
This is the most plausible reason El G never raced the 800
no
it is nonsense
Never raced the 1,000 either
i suggest you try & comprehend something told to you many times before :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jTNBLDrkJH8the composite fastest 1k, including 1st 400 to eliminate flying start + last lap + inbetween fastest composite 200 is
~ 2'14-mid !
& that is effectively solo as the pacers were way too far ahead to offer effective drafting
in a proper 1k TT, he couda expected limpet-drafting for initial 600m at ~ 0.7s/lap = 1s+
therefore, the "effective" 1k he put in a 1500 race was
~ 2'13-mid !!!
what on earth do you think he couda run that day if in an actual smoothly- paced-to- bell 1k ???
TheRomny wrote:Lets throw Willis's 1:43.XX in there
eh ?
he has a 1'45.5pb from 11y ago !
no one has ever claimed nick has 1'43+ ability, but i'd certainly have expected 1'44+ from him in his 3'29.6pb
has he done something special in a training TT ?
coach d wrote:You know that El Guerrouj and Lagat ran the last 800 in the 2004 Oly 1500 in 1:46. But you do not know that they can go any faster
did you comprehend this on 1st page :
even though it was flying start last 800, it was a -ve split of ? 54+ / 52+ ??
i'll check exact splits later
anyhows, 800s are supposed to be run off 2s +ve splits
the formula i use to convert reduction is modulus
( 2nd lap - 1st - 2.00 ) * 1/3
the more likely assessment is that hicham & bernie ran a "usual" 700m in a championship race, but put in a
"proper"
~ 1'44+
( undrafted for hicham = solo )
last 800
?
undrafted for hicham means his "effective" last 800 was probably into the 1'43s considering he was pretty much accelerating all of that last 800
Dr. Li says that he doesn't even know what Lagat's 400 time is and they don't train for it (nor did El Guerrouj)
interesting
the coach of history's 2nd fastest 1500 guy didn't have much idea of his 400 speed !
These days the 800 is much more about 400 speed, but the 1500 is more about aerobic power
no
nothing has changed from hicham's days
there is more depth in 1500 nowdays as event has got more competitive
the only aspect is that fractionally more 1500 guys nowdays are running 800 - souleman, maloofi & Asbel than hicham's days, but no one has claimed any great training shift
we just didn't see hicham/bernie or noah run 800s at their 1500/mile peak, albeit noah split 1'44.62 in his 1k WR with a staggering ~ 6m extra wide on bend on 1st 200 !!!, meaning more like ~ 1'43.8 for his route-1 800 in his 1k WR & 1st lap of actual 49.9 a route-1 of ~ 49.1+ !!!
all this with a 3'29.1 in his legs from ~ 44 hours before !!!
Hitmonlee wrote:Hichem would basically choosing to peak for not his main event, to be prepared enough to handle the event without injury risk, slashing mileage and upping intensity of track workouts
no one claimed anything about training specifically for the 800
we are talking running a 800 off just his 1500 training
running a 800 instead of the 1500 on day of 3'26.00
He wasn't a very large built guy. So doping or no doping (I personally think many pro runners dope but innocent until proven) he is not going to run a 800m or 400m as well as the mile
1'41-mid / 1'42-flat is not as good as 3'26.00
go check iaaf tables to see what they reckon 3'26.00 is worth for 800
claim is he couda run 1'41-mid / 1'42-flat if 800 instead of 1500 on day of 3'26.00
go check if iaaf tables state 1'41-mid / 1'42-flat is superior to 3'26.00 ?
i suggest you closely analyse this 800 run by souleiman, who trains primarily for 1500 & has to be considered a primary 1500 runner as he'd never run a serious 800 before '13 & already had a 3'30.3pb at the time :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SJ1zlUw_ck- work out how much extra distance he runs wide on bends in that 1'42.97
consider that running wide in bend for whole bend adds ~ 2.5m & that just running inside part of lane 2 is ~ 3.5+
work out his extra distance run for last 3 bends
proportion that total figure to 800
- then knock of ~ 0.35s of that as that is ~ the time he threw away with no effective drafting on 1st lap as running 200 - 400 so wide
( based on expectation of drafting between 200 - 400 at 0.7s/lap )
what do you get for souleiman's "perfect" 800 time & you realise he has "only" a 3'29.58pb
( albeit, i'm sure if he'd run the 1500 instead of 800 in monaco, he wouda dipped into 3'27s - still helluva long way of hicham who ran 3'26.00 with a 53.2 finish !!! )
?
Doping is irrelevant to the discussion as it's a simple question of physics. I mean, there are some light 800m specialists but 5 9 128? he's not going to slow as much from the 800m to mile, himself being a miler.
eh ??
what physics ???
what is your point ???
do you have any idea how much yego the former 800wc & 1'42.67pb weighed ???
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alfred_Kirwa_YegoDiabalo wrote:
.... despite what Ventolin says, the athletes and coaches know more about their 400/800 ability than he does.
.
Based on what?
TheRomny wrote:
ventolin^3 wrote:that is utter nonsense
did you not see baala, a primary 1500 guy who ran 1'43.1 in his 1st serious elite 800 ???
or how about webb, who had never broken 1'46 before '07 & then shattered it down to 1'43.8 in his 1st serious elite 800 ???!!!
- even Asbel who runs 800 of primary 1500 ran 1'43.1 as a raw kid at 19y
- maloofi with 1'43.5pb
- cram, a primary 1500 guy runs 1'42.8 with ~ 5m extra on bends in a tactical race !!!
you seriously so clueless as to believe baala & webb were superior athletes to hicham ???
do you think if cram coud run 1'42+ off 3'29+ ability that hicham was not capable of breaking 1'44 ???
utterly clueless
he finished 3'26.00 with 53.2 !!!
if you think that can be done off 1'44+ speed then you have no clue about running
nonsense
you think he was doping
you so inept to believe doping woud only help 1500 but not 800 ???
he didn't run 800s as he knew he was going to get beat by Kip & he didn't want his invincible aura dented at any distance in late-'90s
utter nonsense
he didn't have intrinsic 800 speed of baala/webb/cram/laloo/chirchir/Asbel ???
Lets throw Willis's 1:43.XX in there.
DUH guys. The men's 800 is called the UNDOPEABLE event for a reason.
Diabalo wrote:Agree with 400 of 48 but think he could have run 1:43 low for 800 in a paced race
laughable !!!
now you are disagreeing with one of your other handles !!!
Basically times his coach stated
nonsense
hicham's coach didn't seem to have much idea of his 400 speed & according to another poster here, james li had no idea of bernie's 400 !!!
and despite what Ventolin says, the athletes and coaches know more about their 400/800 ability than he does
no
it's claimed james li had no idea of bernie's 400 ability
i reckon 46-low
Cram has said he ran a 48.1 for 400 in training at the height of his peers in 85
nonsense
whatever "peers" nonsense is ?!
all you claimed is that cram ran 48.1tt in summer-'85
his summer-'85 800s included crap such as 1'46.4 on 21st june losing to coe & even more crap 1'47.6 losing to mckean on 29th june
those are summer runs & 1'46+ is crap maybe somewhere not inconsistent with a rubbish 48.1tt
certainly not anywhere consistent with his awesome 1'42.8 peak with ~ 5m extra on bends & crushing cruz in a slow race to bell & tactical affair for cram
then there is no specification if that 48.1tt was fully rested for best part of a week as your best 400 shoud be
did he run that 48.1 fully rested ???
or last race of day after hard 10 mile run in morning & a brutal track-workout during the afternoon with multiple reps of fast 800s then finished with a 400tt ???
I don't believe EL G was as fast as Cram over 400 or 800
you offer nothing as usual
something concrete required
after years of pondering, comparison to likes of souleiman/maths/etc, imo :
cram was in best 400/800 shape for edinburgh-'86 :
~ 46-low/mid / 1'41-low
hicham in 3'26.00 shape :
~ 46-mid/high / 1'41-mid / 1'42-flat
And El G's coach clearly agrees
no
claim of 48.1 in training
nothing about exact date of run such as losing 1'47.6 shape end-june or how rested he was for it
he equally couda run it :
last race of day after hard 10 mile run in morning & a brutal track-workout during the afternoon with multiple reps of fast 800s or 1ks then finished with a 400tt ???
The Moroccan was clearly an endurance based miler
nonsense
he did lotta mileage, but a composite solo 2'14-mid, worth more like 2'13-mid if paced to 600, in a 1500 !!!, shows he had plenty of speed
helluva lot of speed
does anyone in this universe seriously think it is possible to run 3'26.00 with a 53.2 finish off 47+++/48-low ??? or 1'43+ ???
as the vast majority were during his era of undoubted EPO use
this nonsense is irrelevant
even if he was on epo, was he some kind of unique physiological abnormality that the epo woud give him superfast 1500 ability but crap 800 of your suggested 1'43+ ???
can epo give 3'26.00 with 53.2 finish but only crap 1'43+ ???
It would have affected his 800 time marginally
utter drivel
your argument is saying that NO 800 runner shoud ever take epo as it gives "marginal" benefit !!!???
where the hell is your proof that epo does not help 800 hugely ???
meaning he was probably more of a 1:43 high athlete naturally
nonsense
natural or not
in his 3'26.00 with 53.2, he was likely
~ 1'41-mid / 1'42-high
but it would have meant a 2-3 sec improvement in the 1500
nonsense
back to your
"epo doesn't offer anything but marginal benefit for 800"
try more like :
if epo offers 3s improvement for 1500, then, if it offered same proportional benefit for 800, it woud be
~ (8/15) * 3 = 1.6s benefit for 800
however, seeing as 800 is slightly more aerobic event than 1500 & slightly lesser epo effect, that 1.6s shoud be reduced slightly
a reasonable ballpark figure woud be
~ 1.2 / 1.3s
improvement for an an already elite 800 guy with epo
get a neurone & learn to think
I don't believe he was naturally any better than Cram over the mile
nonsense
he was most tested middle-distance runner of the era & all the way into '04 when epo test was good
he was just a brutal trainer & trained with weights which beat the kenyans
kenyans still not training with weights & end result is still those stick-insect Asbel's et al
just had undetectable drugs which made the difference
nonsense
he was running until '04-late which was 4y into better epo test & obviously most tested middle-distance runner of all-time upto then
what drugs apart from epo ???
Vent - how come Coe is the only athlete that you believe is slower than his actual PB? Every other athlete (Cram, ElG, Souleiman , Kiprop, Cruz, JR, just to name a few) according to you shoulda run quicker.
The issue I have with your maths is that you are basing it of made up theoretical 400m times, which are in many cases faster than what the athlete themselves believe they can run.
You've questioned Crams 48.1 TT, but never once have you questioned if it was with a standing or rolling start? This is key information in anyones books. That 48.1 could very well be a 48.8 if it were not with a standing start. Given how poor I would except Cram to be out of blocks, this would prob be closer to 49.1 in a bonafide race.
Coe was streaks ahead of Cram in terms of raw speed. I don't believe Coe was that much quicker than the 46.87 he ran (800m guys can split 1 sec quicker with a rolling start).
You think that if Nick Willis was in 1:43 shape that he wouldn't do everything he could to take down Snell's NR from 1964!
JRinaldi wrote:Vent - how come Coe is the only athlete that you believe is slower than his actual PB?
because in another thread, about legitimacy, his 1'41.73 shoud never have been ratified as no auto-time
where are the auto times for the field ???
go look at the document
& as olizarenkho's 1'54.85 with 1 HT of 1'54.5 shows HT can be way off !!!!
then we have rono's 13'06.20-auto with 3 HTs of 13'05.4
0,8s off !!!
Every other athlete (Cram, ElG, Souleiman , Kiprop, Cruz, JR, just to name a few) according to you shoulda run quicker
eh ?
who is JR above ?
i examine case-to-case basis
some of those above had nonsense or poorly effected or no proper 800s at all
The issue I have with your maths is that you are basing it of made up theoretical 400m times
eh ???
i put lot of thought into those estimates
if you don't think it is important or worthwhile to estimate the 400 ability of the guy who ran 3'26.00 with a 53.2 finish, then you are clearly hugely lacking in a coaching role
to any middle-distance coach, it is hugely important to have a very precise idea of his boyz 400 / 800 ability, as if/when/ever you get a huge talent, you have to have an idea of their current/possible ability...
which are in many cases faster than what the athlete themselves believe they can run
this shows me you are deficient coach
( don't take it personally
i like you
but i have ivy-league colleagues/friends who are brain-surgeons & rocket-scientists
i can judge ability )
you coach a 1'44+ guy & only someone who is not sure of their ability as coach coud state that
james li, it is claimed had no idea of bernie's 400, & hicham's coach said 48+, whilst hicham, it's claimed stated an utter nonsense 49/50 !!!
it means 2 fastest 1500 guys ever did not really know their 400 ability & neither did their coaches
what is your problem ?
You've questioned Crams 48.1 TT
when exact date in summer ???
he was running losing 1'46+ & 1'47+ in summer before his great period
then i want to know if fully rested rested or last race in day after hard 10 mile in morning then brutal 4 x 800 &/or brutal 4 x 1500 reps in afternoon prior to that 48.1 ???
but never once have you questioned if it was with a standing or rolling start?
see above
This is key information in anyones books
no
see above
That 48.1 could very well be a 48.8 if it were not with a standing start
no
see above
Given how poor I would except Cram to be out of blocks, this would prob be closer to 49.1 in a bonafide race
nonsense
you woud have no idea of how quick cram was out of the blocks, seeing as you never saw his training in '85 or '86
King Carl never was quick out of any blocks but ran greatest/fastest 100 before mo
blocks argument is nonsense
Coe was streaks ahead of Cram in terms of raw speed
nonsense
at cram's edinburgh-'86 800 peak, there wouda been only few tenths advantage over coe's-peak over 400
all of it clawed back & surpassed by cram's more emphasise on 800 towards edinburgh
i hope you really are the coach of a 1'44.4 guy
I don't believe Coe was that much quicker than the 46.87 he ran (800m guys can split 1 sec quicker with a rolling start)
no
he was worth 45-high in early-'81
the problem is that some chump(s) can't realise that this likely drifted out to
46-flat / 46 +
by later in season
no 400 shape or 800 or 1500... stays constant over period of many weeks !!!
You think that if Nick Willis was in 1:43 shape that he wouldn't do everything he could to take down Snell's NR from 1964!
i suggest you go re-read the thread
i never said nick was ever in 1'43+ shape
someone posted nick-1'43+ & i decried it
go read whole thread again...
( btw :
can you kindly repost that earl jones training from while back ? )