Didn't Bill Rodgers run a faster Boston like, umpteen million years ago, faster than these "US" jokers did today??
Go ahead, flame me, but isn't this true??
Didn't Bill Rodgers run a faster Boston like, umpteen million years ago, faster than these "US" jokers did today??
Go ahead, flame me, but isn't this true??
2:09:27 and 2:09:55 were his Boston PR's. The 2:09:55 was the earlier race (1975) and he claims it was a big surprise to him.
The first (1975) was a runaway; the second was a war of attrition with Seko.
Crevice Cakes wrote:
Didn't Bill Rodgers run a faster Boston like, umpteen million years ago, faster than these "US" jokers did today??
Go ahead, flame me, but isn't this true??
Bill Rodgers was one of the greatest American marathoners runners of all time and the Boston Marathon was his home course. He won the race 4 times.
I guess you've shown how far American distance running has come since the late 1990s that we are holding some of today's best to such a lofty standard. Thanks for helping us all to believe again, Crevice Cakes!
Yeah but did Bill ever have to go out halfway in 1:02:40 to stay close to the leaders?
Meb and Culp were there to win. If they were to do that they had to stay with the leaders. Put either of them in similar competitive conditions as Rodgers in "75 and "79 faced and I'm betting they were capable of hanging with Rodgers. The same old story, the oldtimers keep wanting to remind us about the past.
slaps wrote:
Yeah but did Bill ever have to go out halfway in 1:02:40 to stay close to the leaders?
Meb and Culp were there to win. If they were to do that they had to stay with the leaders. Put either of them in similar competitive conditions as Rodgers in "75 and "79 faced and I'm betting they were capable of hanging with Rodgers. The same old story, the oldtimers keep wanting to remind us about the past.
We do. It was a great day and I'm really impressed. But we're not back to where we were in BR's day. doesn't mean we can't be again.
Sorry to change the subject but Bill also won the 1976 NYC Marathon in 2:10:09 after a rough run in Montreal.I remember the route in NY had a few pedestrian overpasses along the East River. I was only running six minute pace and can't imagine trying to win/spin @ sub 5 pace!That run is just another amazing thing that BR did!
Crevice Cakes wrote:
Didn't Bill Rodgers run a faster Boston like, umpteen million years ago, faster than these "US" jokers did today??
Go ahead, flame me, but isn't this true??
His breaktrough race in the '74 or '75 had a VERY strong tailwind; those conditions today would have resulted in times of 2:05/2:06/2:08 and at least three if not four American's would be bettered that time. Also remember that a little later Billy won about 25 straight races.
26mi235 wrote:
four American's would
"Americans"
Sorry, the wine was too good tonight at dinner (especially since I drink very little). I will stop posting until tomorrow.
correction wrote:
26mi235 wrote:four American's would
"Americans"
"correction," I hate you.
My guess is that Rodgers would have run 2:10-something in the 2006 Boston. I can't imagine he'd survive going out any faster than 1:04-flat at halfway without a tailwind, so he'd probably have to run a Sell-type race if the leaders split 1:02:43. He liked to be at the front fairly early, so a cherry-pick race could have been hard for him. Either way, I don't see him winning these days with the deeper competition (certainly not against a 2:07), but a good race would put him at least where Sell finished, probably ahead of that.
Hard to exactly compare runners of different eras, but I'd say Meb is a better marathon runner than Rodgers was. That Olympic silver stands out, but Rodgers had an amazing string of 2:09-2:11 races and had a great chance for a medal himself if he hadn't been injured in Montreal. Culpepper is also better than Rodgers until the distance gets up around 20 or so miles, then Rodgers might beat him as often as not, especially at Boston. An average performance from Rodgers would probably beat Sell's best so far. We think of Rodgers as "Boston Billy," but his 2:10:10 at New York might have been his best performance.
The U.S. was just as good at the top then as now, and obviously a lot deeper. Guys like Shorter, Rodgers, Kardong, Sandoval, Durden and Wells (and Salazar and Beardsley later on) would fare just as well at Boston today as the top Americans just did, provided they prepared specifically for that race. Obviously, the game might change for runners of both eras if there was no London marathon and the Tergats and Gebrselassies of the world showed up at Boston.
Who's this Bill Rogers guy you all keep talking about?
He's Rodgers Rop's step-uncle.
Luigi Vercotti wrote:
My guess is that Rodgers would have run 2:10-something in the 2006 Boston. I can't imagine he'd survive going out any faster than 1:04-flat at halfway without a tailwind, so he'd probably have to run a Sell-type race if the leaders split 1:02:43. He liked to be at the front fairly early, so a cherry-pick race could have been hard for him. Either way, I don't see him winning these days with the deeper competition (certainly not against a 2:07), but a good race would put him at least where Sell finished, probably ahead of that.
Hard to exactly compare runners of different eras, but I'd say Meb is a better marathon runner than Rodgers was. That Olympic silver stands out, but Rodgers had an amazing string of 2:09-2:11 races and had a great chance for a medal himself if he hadn't been injured in Montreal. Culpepper is also better than Rodgers until the distance gets up around 20 or so miles, then Rodgers might beat him as often as not, especially at Boston. An average performance from Rodgers would probably beat Sell's best so far. We think of Rodgers as "Boston Billy," but his 2:10:10 at New York might have been his best performance.
The U.S. was just as good at the top then as now, and obviously a lot deeper. Guys like Shorter, Rodgers, Kardong, Sandoval, Durden and Wells (and Salazar and Beardsley later on) would fare just as well at Boston today as the top Americans just did, provided they prepared specifically for that race. Obviously, the game might change for runners of both eras if there was no London marathon and the Tergats and Gebrselassies of the world showed up at Boston.
I pretty much agree with all of your points. Rodgers only broke 2:10 twice, both on the downhill Boston course with very favorable weather conditions (especially in 1975). His best performance may well have been in the 1976 NYC marathon, and his best performance on a record-quality course was, as I recall, just under 2:11 at Fukuoka. I think a Rodgers-level performance at Boston this year would have been close to 2:10 flat.
The comparison between Rodgers and Meb is tricky. Although Meb's performances have perhaps been slightly better based on time, course, and weather conditions, the really impressive thing about Rodgers, at his peak, was the relative ease with which he dominated and won races. The emphasis was on winning, not on times, and Rodgers at his peak always looked as though he could run considerably faster if he needed to. I remember standing in the crowd at the 1979 Boston race, when Rodgers, having broken Seko, came by, waving to the crowd and smiling, and just prancing along to finish in 2:09:27. It's hard to say how fast Rodgers could have run in a London-style paced marathon, or a marathon against equals in good weather.
I agree that the level of competition in the U.S., in terms of depth, is not remotely where it was back in the "old days." I ran Boston in 1983. From about 2:10 on, it was just a steady stream of runners at the finish line, and almost all of them were from the U.S. This year, a 2:25 put you in the top 25, and many of those 25 were from other countries. In 1983, a 2:25 wouldn't have put you in the top 150, and almost everyone ahead of you would have been from the U.S.
Bill loved to race,he was a distance racer.The Three Musketeers(Bill,Tom Fleming and Patticat) would race anybody any where.......week in and week out... they raced.
I think Patti raced an AR in Fla on a Sat. and then set another AR in Boston the next day..
The young guys ran great yesterday and we are seeing some progress. The old guys were pretty good though and the depth was pretty impressive in '83. Granted there were no Kenyans taking the pace out in 1:02 for the half. Also note that 50th was 2:17 in '83 vs. 2:30 yesterday.
1983 BAA Marathon
1. G. Meyer, MA 2:09:00
2. R. Tabb, OR 2:09:31
3. B. Durden, GA 2:09:57
4. E. Mendoza, AZ 2:10:06
5. C. Bunyan, IL 2:10:54
6. D. Edge, Canada 2:11:03
7. M. Layman, WA 2:11:24
8. D. Schlesinger, MA 2:11:36
9. J. Wells, OR 2:11:42
10. B. Rodgers, MA 2:11:58
11. D. Hinz, MI 2:12:05
13. D. MacDonald, CA 2:12:49
14. B. Coates, PA 2:13:02
15. D. Gordon, OR 2:13:11
16. H. Schulz, CA 2:13:37
17. D. Rinde, CA 2:13:48
18. R. Sayre, OR 2:13:49
19. G. Vega, NY 2:14:01
20. K. McCarey, CA 2:14:09
21. T. Fleming, NJ 2:14:14
22. C. Law, NC 2:14:21
23. D. Matthews, GA 2:14:46
24. T. Shibutani, Japan 2:15:12
25. D. Patterson, PA 2:15:20
26. J. Dimick, VT 2:15:23
27. B. Allen, CO 2:15:36
28. E. Castellanou, Venezuela 2:15:40
29. L. Barthlow, MA 2:15:43
30. M. Mesler, MI 2:15:44
31. M. Pinocci, CA 2:15:50
32. P. Cummings, UT 2:16:05
33. J. Hope, CA 2:16:10
34. J. Anderson, OR 2:16:19
35. R. Serna, CA 2:16:26
36. J. Thomas, MA 2:16:28
37. F. Stonecipher, MO 2:16:35
38. A. Azocar, Venezuela 2:16:38
39. S. Molnar, PA 2:16:41
40. M. Patterson, PA 2:16:45
41. B. Hensley, CT 2:16:50
42. J. Metcalf, OK 2:17:02
43. R. Hagemann, TX 2:17:05
44. F. Torneden, KS 2:17:08
45. A. Cendejas, CA 2:17:15
46. P. Friedman, NY 2:17:17
47. D. Ryberg, NC 2:17:18
48. G. Fanelli, PA 2:17:29
49. A. Treffinger, PA 2:17:30
50. R. Fritzke, CA 2:17:31
... ..................................................
The young guys ran great yesterday and we are seeing some progress. The old guys were pretty good though and the depth was pretty impressive in '83. Granted there were no Kenyans taking the pace out in 1:02 for the half. Also note that 50th was 2:17 in '83 vs. 2:30 yesterday.
1983 BAA Marathon
1. G. Meyer, MA 2:09:00
2. R. Tabb, OR 2:09:31
3. B. Durden, GA 2:09:57
4. E. Mendoza, AZ 2:10:06
5. C. Bunyan, IL 2:10:54
6. D. Edge, Canada 2:11:03
7. M. Layman, WA 2:11:24
8. D. Schlesinger, MA 2:11:36
9. J. Wells, OR 2:11:42
10. B. Rodgers, MA 2:11:58
11. D. Hinz, MI 2:12:05
13. D. MacDonald, CA 2:12:49
14. B. Coates, PA 2:13:02
15. D. Gordon, OR 2:13:11
16. H. Schulz, CA 2:13:37
17. D. Rinde, CA 2:13:48
18. R. Sayre, OR 2:13:49
19. G. Vega, NY 2:14:01
20. K. McCarey, CA 2:14:09
21. T. Fleming, NJ 2:14:14
22. C. Law, NC 2:14:21
23. D. Matthews, GA 2:14:46
24. T. Shibutani, Japan 2:15:12
25. D. Patterson, PA 2:15:20
26. J. Dimick, VT 2:15:23
27. B. Allen, CO 2:15:36
28. E. Castellanou, Venezuela 2:15:40
29. L. Barthlow, MA 2:15:43
30. M. Mesler, MI 2:15:44
31. M. Pinocci, CA 2:15:50
32. P. Cummings, UT 2:16:05
33. J. Hope, CA 2:16:10
34. J. Anderson, OR 2:16:19
35. R. Serna, CA 2:16:26
36. J. Thomas, MA 2:16:28
37. F. Stonecipher, MO 2:16:35
38. A. Azocar, Venezuela 2:16:38
39. S. Molnar, PA 2:16:41
40. M. Patterson, PA 2:16:45
41. B. Hensley, CT 2:16:50
42. J. Metcalf, OK 2:17:02
43. R. Hagemann, TX 2:17:05
44. F. Torneden, KS 2:17:08
45. A. Cendejas, CA 2:17:15
46. P. Friedman, NY 2:17:17
47. D. Ryberg, NC 2:17:18
48. G. Fanelli, PA 2:17:29
49. A. Treffinger, PA 2:17:30
50. R. Fritzke, CA 2:17:31
... ..................................................
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It was 1980 that was going to be Rodgers' year - the year of the Olympic boycott.