As someone who coached some highly successful high school athletes 35 years ago, I think the internet itself has made a huge difference. Everyone back then was training and competing in an information vacuum. I had no idea what kinds of times people were running in other parts of my state, let alone in the country. I had to wait until I got my Track & and Field News in the mail to find out what was going on nationally, and it was at least 4-6 weeks out of date by the time I got it. All we thought about was the local competition and qualifying for the State Meet. I once drove 3 hours round-trip on a Sunday morning to get a newspaper from the city where our main rival lived, just to get the results of their Regional Meet. Nowadays, the amount of information at our fingertips is astounding. Knowledge = Power!
Seven hs boys broke 8:40 yesterday. Used to be sub 9 was good. As a collegiate, breaking 4 in the mile is nothing. Super shoes? Sure but what else? EPO? I doubt high schoolers are on it.
JFC these stupid questions. I swear ⅔ of the posts on this site have to be from bots
I have science for you. I have coached for 20 years and kept data on every workout and every race. My guys race about 10 seconds faster today doing the same workouts that my previous athletes did.
That’s not science. Is the talent level at your school a constant? Last year the fastest Jesuit Sacramento runner didn’t break 9:20. I doubt that Lange changed his workouts so by your logic, the new shoes make people run slower.
so those Jesuit kids were doing the same workouts(say 10x400 in 68) and racing slower? Or were they doing slower workouts and racing slower…
if you look at XC times, you notice the improvements of the top kids isn’t anywhere near as much as track. 15:00 mins still gets you close to the win at footlocker despite the 3200m times being 10s faster. Why doesn’t the doping and training help with XC?
It was mentioned earlier in the thread, but the effect the shoes have on those with poor economy seems to be undervalued, raising the level of runners with poor economy much more than those with great economy. This serves to increase the mass of runners running fast times, but doesn't push the times down nearly as much at the very highest levels (WRs). It could partially explain the increase pros running under say ~3:35, or HSers breaking 4 while the WR remains stable. Obviously this hasn't been proven definitively, but it's an interesting argument.
You're giving the shoes a six second advantage over a mile. Then the best guys should be running 3:22 1500s and 3:39 miles at least. They're not. The spikes might be worth a couple seconds at most. That was Nick Willis's estimate and it might be too much. The top guys were running 3:26.7 to 3:28.8 at Monaco before the spikes and to this point Jakob has run 3:27s and has improved only 4 seconds since he was 17, before superspikes and with physical maturity. But confidence, time trial-like races for time primarily, and pacers have all improved a lot.
Jakob peaked young, maybe when he was 21. It is just that up until last year his deterioration has been slower than the improvements he has made due to the super spike's. Still he had a great career. I have no doubt that he has at least another sub 3:30 1500m left in the tank. He might even be standing on another podium or 2 before he hangs up the spikes.
Agreed. It’s gospel that super spikes are the primary driver of all the improvement we’re seeing, but there’s no consistent explanation for how they work. The people crying spikes after 8 men break 3:30 in Oslo are the same ones telling you that super spikes don’t work for elites, or only work at longer distances, or [insert excuse here] when you press them to explain why no one who ran 3:28 in old spikes has run 3:26. Contradictory views like this seem to represent general board sentiment because they are always highly upvoted.
Every thread griping about high school and college kids is the same. Great performances are the result of the nebulous super spike effect, cheater shoes, boing boing, etc. Some genius observes that depth has improved at the high school and collegiate levels and concludes that super spikes are the only possible explanation. That’s what passes for analysis around here.
every single person who ran a sub 3:28 from 2017-2019 broke 3:20 with the super shoes… People have forgotten how rare sub 3:29s had gotten after el g retired
Serious have you ever looked at the time lists? We had 9 people sub 3:31 in that period. And a couple of the fastest have been banned for doping. And a few were getting old. Now what does it take to make the top 9? 3:29. Yeah a few guys like Cheruiuyot didn’t get noticeably faster. But for everyone like that you have a Habz who as a 27 year old was a 3:36 guy. Next year super spikes come out and he runs 3:32. Josh Kerr going from 3:32.5 to 3:29. There is a general 2-3s shift.
Covid and Kenyan drug test complicate the whole picture but the only other time we had drops with this type of depth was the 90s. And that was mainly just a couple countries instead of the whole world…
No there is not. Do you even understand what you’re saying? If the spikes are worth 2.5 seconds in a 1500m, then a 3:27.5 today is equivalent to 3:30 in old spikes. That means Jakob is the only person in the last 5 years who has legitimately broken 3:30, and he’s only done it once.
Looking at it another way, you can cut 2.5 seconds from performances before 2019 to see what yesterday’s 1500m athletes would run in today’s spikes:
Half this list is composed of guys who never won anything at 1500m, but in absolute terms they are faster than the reigning Olympic champion and miles ahead of the last two World champions (if the spikes are worth what you claim).
It should be no surprise more men are breaking 3:30 today when every race is a time trial paced the entire way by wavelight and a generational talent who likes to front run. Spikes have nothing to do with it.
You don't seem to understand. I have hundreds of data points. I can pull up a workout from 15 years ago and compare the exact workout times to today's workout and the corresponding race times. I have had to adjust the projections over the past few years since guys started racing so much faster than the workouts would indicate.
That’s not science. Is the talent level at your school a constant? Last year the fastest Jesuit Sacramento runner didn’t break 9:20. I doubt that Lange changed his workouts so by your logic, the new shoes make people run slower.
so those Jesuit kids were doing the same workouts(say 10x400 in 68) and racing slower? Or were they doing slower workouts and racing slower…
if you look at XC times, you notice the improvements of the top kids isn’t anywhere near as much as track. 15:00 mins still gets you close to the win at footlocker despite the 3200m times being 10s faster. Why doesn’t the doping and training help with XC?
Everyone wants to ignore the lack of improvement in XC times. I think it tells the story. The shoes don't make much of a difference on soft surfaces. XC time are basically stagnant for the past 40 years.
The "better training and nutrition" only works where the shoes work. Take the shoe advantage away, as in XC, and it's easy to see that the runners aren't improving that much.
every single person who ran a sub 3:28 from 2017-2019 broke 3:20 with the super shoes… People have forgotten how rare sub 3:29s had gotten after el g retired
Serious have you ever looked at the time lists? We had 9 people sub 3:31 in that period. And a couple of the fastest have been banned for doping. And a few were getting old. Now what does it take to make the top 9? 3:29. Yeah a few guys like Cheruiuyot didn’t get noticeably faster. But for everyone like that you have a Habz who as a 27 year old was a 3:36 guy. Next year super spikes come out and he runs 3:32. Josh Kerr going from 3:32.5 to 3:29. There is a general 2-3s shift.
Covid and Kenyan drug test complicate the whole picture but the only other time we had drops with this type of depth was the 90s. And that was mainly just a couple countries instead of the whole world…
No there is not. Do you even understand what you’re saying? If the spikes are worth 2.5 seconds in a 1500m, then a 3:27.5 today is equivalent to 3:30 in old spikes. That means Jakob is the only person in the last 5 years who has legitimately broken 3:30, and he’s only done it once.
Looking at it another way, you can cut 2.5 seconds from performances before 2019 to see what yesterday’s 1500m athletes would run in today’s spikes:
Half this list is composed of guys who never won anything at 1500m, but in absolute terms they are faster than the reigning Olympic champion and miles ahead of the last two World champions (if the spikes are worth what you claim).
It should be no surprise more men are breaking 3:30 today when every race is a time trial paced the entire way by wavelight and a generational talent who likes to front run. Spikes have nothing to do with it.
Nobody listed there has anything to do with a high school 3200. Not to mention a good portion of your list is likely doping.
The shoes absolutely provide a mechanical performance boost. It's not much of a stretch to think that a doped up Kiprop wearing the latest carbon spring cheater shoe could go 3:24.
It's true that the race would have been faster with good pace makers, because they went out in just 4:22 and maintained pretty much the same pace until a lap to go. The winner closed in 57, Simmons, for 8:34.96. So, he was at about 7:38 at 2800 (3:15-16 for the 1200m from 1600 to 2800m). They were running 65s and 66s most of the way. Had they gone out in 4:15, who knows? Maybe it would have broken the leaders and they would have staggered home; maybe they would have broken 8:30.
Seven hs boys broke 8:40 yesterday. Used to be sub 9 was good. As a collegiate, breaking 4 in the mile is nothing. Super shoes? Sure but what else? EPO? I doubt high schoolers are on it.
lol sub 9 used to be good in like 2010. It's still good, but the sport has always had these massive jumps even before super shoes.
What aspect specifically of the spikes are we talking about? Is it the carbon fiber plates or just the curved shape? As I stated in another thread, the track dragonflies (Nike) have been the most popular in highschool distance running for the past few years. They don't have carbon fiber in them, only PEBAX (whatever that means), and kids are still running fast. For the trainers, I can see how foam etc. would allow people to train at a higher volume, get into better shape and then race faster times as a result; I just don't think putting on a super shoe will have an IMMEDIATE impact on a runner's speed. I believe the benefit of super shoes might lie in the training, not necessarily racing.
What aspect specifically of the spikes are we talking about? Is it the carbon fiber plates or just the curved shape? As I stated in another thread, the track dragonflies (Nike) have been the most popular in highschool distance running for the past few years. They don't have carbon fiber in them, only PEBAX (whatever that means), and kids are still running fast. For the trainers, I can see how foam etc. would allow people to train at a higher volume, get into better shape and then race faster times as a result; I just don't think putting on a super shoe will have an IMMEDIATE impact on a runner's speed. I believe the benefit of super shoes might lie in the training, not necessarily racing.
If you were running a couple of tempo miles, would you go faster in the Vaporfly or in trainers for the same effort?
You tell me. That's what I was asking. As other people have stated, maybe not. Maybe it would take off some of the impact and make it easier to recover, consequently allowing runners to improve quicker.I have been training in carbon plated shoes since December and have honestly not hit any crazy times, so your sarcastic question is actually something I'm genuinely curious about.
every single person who ran a sub 3:28 from 2017-2019 broke 3:20 with the super shoes… People have forgotten how rare sub 3:29s had gotten after el g retired
Serious have you ever looked at the time lists? We had 9 people sub 3:31 in that period. And a couple of the fastest have been banned for doping. And a few were getting old. Now what does it take to make the top 9? 3:29. Yeah a few guys like Cheruiuyot didn’t get noticeably faster. But for everyone like that you have a Habz who as a 27 year old was a 3:36 guy. Next year super spikes come out and he runs 3:32. Josh Kerr going from 3:32.5 to 3:29. There is a general 2-3s shift.
Covid and Kenyan drug test complicate the whole picture but the only other time we had drops with this type of depth was the 90s. And that was mainly just a couple countries instead of the whole world…
No there is not. Do you even understand what you’re saying? If the spikes are worth 2.5 seconds in a 1500m, then a 3:27.5 today is equivalent to 3:30 in old spikes. That means Jakob is the only person in the last 5 years who has legitimately broken 3:30, and he’s only done it once.
Looking at it another way, you can cut 2.5 seconds from performances before 2019 to see what yesterday’s 1500m athletes would run in today’s spikes:
Half this list is composed of guys who never won anything at 1500m, but in absolute terms they are faster than the reigning Olympic champion and miles ahead of the last two World champions (if the spikes are worth what you claim).
It should be no surprise more men are breaking 3:30 today when every race is a time trial paced the entire way by wavelight and a generational talent who likes to front run. Spikes have nothing to do with it.
Notice how far back you have to go to get that list? Notice how many have been busted for drugs?
let’s compare 2018+2019 to 2022/2023
2018/19: 2 guys sub 3:30 . Both Kenyans. 1 suspended for doping. The other has run no where near as well since testing was instituted and his training partner suspended
2022/2023: 12 guys sub 3:30, 1 sub 3:27.5. And yeah 1 of them was caught doping.
You don’t see a huge improvement?
but sure now Ingrebstein is in every race pacing them to fast times. Or just accept we live in a new world and comparing today’s times is like comparing synthetic and cinder tracks. Had all the same arguement about fast cinders were.
every single person who ran a sub 3:28 from 2017-2019 broke 3:20 with the super shoes… People have forgotten how rare sub 3:29s had gotten after el g retired
Serious have you ever looked at the time lists? We had 9 people sub 3:31 in that period. And a couple of the fastest have been banned for doping. And a few were getting old. Now what does it take to make the top 9? 3:29. Yeah a few guys like Cheruiuyot didn’t get noticeably faster. But for everyone like that you have a Habz who as a 27 year old was a 3:36 guy. Next year super spikes come out and he runs 3:32. Josh Kerr going from 3:32.5 to 3:29. There is a general 2-3s shift.
Covid and Kenyan drug test complicate the whole picture but the only other time we had drops with this type of depth was the 90s. And that was mainly just a couple countries instead of the whole world…
No there is not. Do you even understand what you’re saying? If the spikes are worth 2.5 seconds in a 1500m, then a 3:27.5 today is equivalent to 3:30 in old spikes. That means Jakob is the only person in the last 5 years who has legitimately broken 3:30, and he’s only done it once.
Looking at it another way, you can cut 2.5 seconds from performances before 2019 to see what yesterday’s 1500m athletes would run in today’s spikes:
Half this list is composed of guys who never won anything at 1500m, but in absolute terms they are faster than the reigning Olympic champion and miles ahead of the last two World champions (if the spikes are worth what you claim).
It should be no surprise more men are breaking 3:30 today when every race is a time trial paced the entire way by wavelight and a generational talent who likes to front run. Spikes have nothing to do with it.
Taking a world-class list and saying that the shoes are worth the same as a guy running, oh, say a 3:55 1500m as someone running 3:28 is like saying ped has the same benefit for a 26:20 10000m runner as it does a 29:30 runner. It doesn’t. A 29:30 runner is going to benefit more from ped than the 26:20 guy. Why? Probably because to 26:20 guy is nearing the redline of what his body can do. You can only run so fast. Who knows. What are the shoes worth for a 3:28 runner? It’s probably not much. What are the shoes worth for a 13:30 5000m runner? 15 seconds. That is the average improvement for US men’s top 100 years 2021-2023 when comparing the previous 10 years. In only one year US mens top 100 for 5000m improved 15 second and hasn’t stopped. It is like that for every event - men’s and women’s. Why? What changed from one year to the next? You don’t have to look at the elite of elite to see what’s going on. It’s at the HS, collegiate, and national levels. If USATF ever decided to ban cheat shoes, you’d see men literally crying.
So "efficiency" is selective. It works on some distances but not others.
Yes, that's correct. How important do you think efficiency is for a 100m sprinter? Not at all: sprinting speed is determined by how much force you can transmit to the ground. You're not going to run out of energy within ten seconds.
For a marathoner, efficiency is everything. The speeds they're traveling at require so much less force that they're not limited by muscle power or force transmission; they're limited by fuel availability, so efficiency matters.
The two factors intersect for middle-distance runners. You can quibble about the exact ratios of aerobic/anaerobic energy and the importance of top-end speed, but the transition is somewhere around 800m. Spike designs with different geometries may still offer some mechanical advantage to sprinters, but efficiency becomes less and less relevant as you get to durations that can be fueled mostly anaerobically.
Every kind of sport has its requirements of efficiency, such as how a tennis player uses their racket. Sprinters require efficiency - which is why they pay more attention to form and technique than distance runners. Shoes add (or detract) from efficiency - it isn't only a feature of distance running.