Four weeks of rHuEpo increased the HGB and HCT of Kenyan endurance runners to a lesser extent than in SCO (~17% vs ~10%, respectively) and these alterations were associated with similar improvements in running performance imm...
they studied well trained kenyan runners who lived at altitude and found not only did EPO improve their performance, but the boost remained a month after their last injection.
Doping is clearly much greater in Kenya, that is why there have been over 300 plus busts there, despite poor testing standards until recemtly.
Ther is no incentive for a Western 2:20 talent marathoner to dope with EPO and train full time to pick up modest cheques around the world. There IS for dozens upon dozens of East Africans. That is why they dominate.
Doping is a win-win for Kenyans living in poverty. If they don’t get caught, they make a lot of money and glory. If they do get caught, they still make a lot of money and never have to give it back. If you’re a poor Kenyan, there’s no reason to train clean. You’d be dumb if you’re not taking PEDs. Poverty generally leads to people cheating/breaking rules/breaking the law. Sure, there’s awful side effects that will hurt you later in life, but who cares. People in poverty who don’t know where their next meal will come from care about surviving today, not 30 years from now.
Doping is clearly much greater in Kenya, that is why there have been over 300 plus busts there, despite poor testing standards until recemtly.
Ther is no incentive for a Western 2:20 talent marathoner to dope with EPO and train full time to pick up modest cheques around the world. There IS for dozens upon dozens of East Africans. That is why they dominate.
Excuse me? No incentive for 2:20 talent to dope? Ever come to America and seen cost of college tuition, approaching $250,000 over four years. There is your incentive from an American perspective.
Doping is clearly much greater in Kenya, that is why there have been over 300 plus busts there, despite poor testing standards until recemtly.
Ther is no incentive for a Western 2:20 talent marathoner to dope with EPO and train full time to pick up modest cheques around the world. There IS for dozens upon dozens of East Africans. That is why they dominate.
Excuse me? No incentive for 2:20 talent to dope? Ever come to America and seen cost of college tuition, approaching $250,000 over four years. There is your incentive from an American perspective.
You're thinking that a high school runner is going to take EPO to get as fit as a 2:20 marathoner as a way to get big money for college? You'll get some variances on what equivalent times at other distances are to a 2:20 marathon depending on the calculator you use. I've got one I'm looking at which equates that time to a 4:13 mile, a 14:36 five thousand, 24:00 for 8 km, and 30:21 for ten thousand. Those sorts of times will get a kid some money from some schools but rarely anything close to a full ride. Add the recurring cost of EPO, the health risks, and the danger of being caught and suspended it seems the risk is out of proportion to the reward. I would not be surprised if it's been tried but comparing the financial gain to a US college runner putting up 2:20 equivalent times and getting $60k tuition down to $40k to an East African winning six figures at a major or semi major marathon is quite a reach.
Doping is a win-win for Kenyans living in poverty. If they don’t get caught, they make a lot of money and glory. If they do get caught, they still make a lot of money and never have to give it back. If you’re a poor Kenyan, there’s no reason to train clean. You’d be dumb if you’re not taking PEDs. Poverty generally leads to people cheating/breaking rules/breaking the law. Sure, there’s awful side effects that will hurt you later in life, but who cares. People in poverty who don’t know where their next meal will come from care about surviving today, not 30 years from now.
That's why Kenya should be BANNED from all track events. Ethiopia too,
Excuse me? No incentive for 2:20 talent to dope? Ever come to America and seen cost of college tuition, approaching $250,000 over four years. There is your incentive from an American perspective.
You're thinking that a high school runner is going to take EPO to get as fit as a 2:20 marathoner as a way to get big money for college? You'll get some variances on what equivalent times at other distances are to a 2:20 marathon depending on the calculator you use. I've got one I'm looking at which equates that time to a 4:13 mile, a 14:36 five thousand, 24:00 for 8 km, and 30:21 for ten thousand. Those sorts of times will get a kid some money from some schools but rarely anything close to a full ride. Add the recurring cost of EPO, the health risks, and the danger of being caught and suspended it seems the risk is out of proportion to the reward. I would not be surprised if it's been tried but comparing the financial gain to a US college runner putting up 2:20 equivalent times and getting $60k tuition down to $40k to an East African winning six figures at a major or semi major marathon is quite a reach.
I think what he said is someone with 2:20 talent (4:13 mile) doping to run something like a 4:03 or faster in HS
Well no one listened to me back in the day except casual observer, subway and someone else forget the handle….based on all my calculations I came up with 4% improvements with approx
1-2 seconds for 800 3-4 seconds for 1500 7-9 seconds for 3000 20-30 seconds for 5000 50-60 seconds for 10k and 3-4 min in a thon. I used extensive examples then rectal rummer went and deleted all my work then had me banned. Old news for me
These time trial results suggesting 4.6% improvement for the Kenyans (versus 5.7% for the Scottish) have been re-published in various forms at least three times (in 2013, 2018, and 2019), and discussed here in the letsrun forum each time.
Sometime around 2011, a group of scientists and students conducted a lot of blood tests, genetic tests, and time trials on 19 Scottish "well trained" athletes (10 runners and 9 non-runners), and then repeated this exercise for 20 almost elite Kenyan runners. The main purpose of these series of studies and research was to measure blood and gene response to EPO and collect data for alternative ways to detect EPO use. The term "omics" seems relevant here.
The time trials seemed like an awkward appendage to studies about blood and gene response to EPO, but somehow always makes headline news when the Kenyan time trial results are published, but not so much for the Scottish results (11:08 -> 10:30 (5.7%), and runners only: 10:12 -> 9:40 (5.2%)). Contrary to best practice, none of the time trials were conducted with a control group.
Side note: if the Scottish improved 5.7% while the Kenyans improved 4.6%, why didn't non-Africans similarly progress in the EPO-era compared to 1980s pre-EPO era performances?
The most comprehensive data collected on the time trials can be found at the University of Glasgow website in the PhD thesis of Jerome Durussel.
One of the metrics gathered during the time trial was the Rate of Perceived Exertion (RPE), which effectively shows that the Scottish athletes were trying really hard, while the Kenyans were not.
The pre-study performances of the Kenyan athletes suggest they should have run +/- 8:00 time trials when properly trained. Yet in the time trials they improved from +/- 9:23 to +/- 8:57.
The most favorable conclusion is that EPO helped these Kenyans improve from 85% to 90% aerobic fitness in 4 weeks. Hard to say how that compare to a control group, when there wasn't one.
You're thinking that a high school runner is going to take EPO to get as fit as a 2:20 marathoner as a way to get big money for college? You'll get some variances on what equivalent times at other distances are to a 2:20 marathon depending on the calculator you use. I've got one I'm looking at which equates that time to a 4:13 mile, a 14:36 five thousand, 24:00 for 8 km, and 30:21 for ten thousand. Those sorts of times will get a kid some money from some schools but rarely anything close to a full ride. Add the recurring cost of EPO, the health risks, and the danger of being caught and suspended it seems the risk is out of proportion to the reward. I would not be surprised if it's been tried but comparing the financial gain to a US college runner putting up 2:20 equivalent times and getting $60k tuition down to $40k to an East African winning six figures at a major or semi major marathon is quite a reach.
I think what he said is someone with 2:20 talent (4:13 mile) doping to run something like a 4:03 or faster in HS
Thanks. Could be. I still think it's a bit of a stretch to think the financial payoff for a 4:03 college miler is comparable to an East African's winnings in high profile marathons is a real reach. That time would have not have cracked the top 50 at this year's Valentine's Day mile.
