i like it, of course with room for individualization. maybe a typical high school runner is something more like:
intermediates to be 20 mins of threshold and 4x30-35@1500
5-6x800 @ 5k pace
8x400@ 1500
I would look at a framework like this over something like a 10 day microcycle. I wonder if he would have his pros doing this all in 1 week?
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. It’s not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, it’s a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
Vo2 or threshold can be obtained with different paces by changing the duration and recovery. For example 20x 400 with 90 sec rest at between 5-10k pace could be a threshold workout, or 20 minutes with no rest at 1 hour pace could be a threshold workout
depends on the runner. some just have other gears and are confident in them- no need to work speed on someone who simply can kick in a race. the 400s make 1500 pace "comfortable" and natural enough. Everything else gives the ability to endure. Makes perfect sense for the runners he coaches actually and they seem to be doing fantastic.
Someone who "kicks" faster in the final lap of a race isn't necessarily the one with the most leg speed, it's who arrives at the point with the least amount of lactate accumulation. How do you do that? Tons of mileage and lactate threshold work.
Sounds like Nordas needs to hit more LT work then? Or you are just wrong.
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
He probably isn't counting flying sprints or strides or anything as speed work because there's absolutely no way he'd have his athletes do ZERO work at faster than race pace.
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. Its not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, its a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
A lot of runners, including elite runners, have found Daniels' paces too fast at I. Why run faster when you can get the same benefit by slowing down to 5k pace? There is nothing magical about 3k vs. 5k pace.
3K pace probably has more of an effect on directly improving VO2 than 5K does given its pace proximity. 5K pace is often done instead because 3K pace is quite hard to do week to week. I personally think it's good to have a mix. Occasional shorter workouts at true VO2 pace (3K pace) i.e. 800 repeats and slightly longer ones at 5K i.e. 1Ks. Or you could combine them and do the first few reps at 5K and warm up into the 3K ones.
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. It’s not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, it’s a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
Vo2 or threshold can be obtained with different paces by changing the duration and recovery. For example 20x 400 with 90 sec rest at between 5-10k pace could be a threshold workout, or 20 minutes with no rest at 1 hour pace could be a threshold workout
Yea, I think a steady state/tempo threshold run is overrated and prefer that athletes do longer reps at threshold pace with short rest. Tempos and the like are tough mentally/physically and can be hard to do week over week. Unless you're strapped for time, why do a 25min tempo run at 5:40 pace (4.4 miles) when you could do 8-10K at the same pace (3:20s) with 1min rest and get 5-6miles of volume.
Glad to see this question was so well received! I asked another prominent coach for their three workouts in tomorrow’s newsletter - will gather a few more answers and write a “Training Plans For Dummies” book.
Outrageous to not have any work faster than 1500m pace. Milers need to touch on those faster paces.
The 45 sec repeats (300's) can be done at 800 pace if needed, or maybe the last one in each set. You don't need a lot of raw speed work to achieve the necessary speed needed to run a quality 1500. Runners like Elle are strength based 800/1500 runners, meaning that they achieve their maximum 800/1500 times through their 3k/5k training. She can't drop down from her 3k/5k work load to run a faster 800/1500, it won't work.
Mark is one of the best, if not the best coach that understands this. You can't train a thoroughbred like a mule, or vice versa.
A lot of runners, including elite runners, have found Daniels' paces too fast at I. Why run faster when you can get the same benefit by slowing down to 5k pace? There is nothing magical about 3k vs. 5k pace.
3K pace probably has more of an effect on directly improving VO2 than 5K does given its pace proximity. 5K pace is often done instead because 3K pace is quite hard to do week to week. I personally think it's good to have a mix. Occasional shorter workouts at true VO2 pace (3K pace) i.e. 800 repeats and slightly longer ones at 5K i.e. 1Ks. Or you could combine them and do the first few reps at 5K and warm up into the 3K ones.
I think like 100mile pace has a greater effect on VO2max than either. Volume does wonders on improving the aerobic system… It is really splitting hairs as you get similiar results to doing slightly more work at 5k pace (say 6x1k) versus 3k(say 5x800m).
To go out on a limb, I bet most HS kids would run faster just doing the tempo run workout 2x/week and using races for the faster/harder efforts. But that says more about how bad a lot of the hs plans I have seen are…
i like it, of course with room for individualization. maybe a typical high school runner is something more like:
intermediates to be 20 mins of threshold and 4x30-35@1500
5-6x800 @ 5k pace
8x400@ 1500
I would look at a framework like this over something like a 10 day microcycle. I wonder if he would have his pros doing this all in 1 week?
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. Its not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, its a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
Seb Coe as a senior athlete: Into and throughout his senior career, Seb very rarely ran more than 90km weeks. He followed a 5-pace training system (400m, 800m, 1500m, 3000m, 5000m paced workouts) as a means of addressing the various ‘types’ of running. Seb ran 4 of the 5 paces all year, dropping only the 3km pace in winter. “The 5K pace is golden. It eradicates the need for big mileage” – Peter Coe. During the winter, a considerable portion of his time was spent resistance/weight training. Seb focused on pushing a particular a high resistance with fewer reps.
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
I like it. You can’t go wrong with those.
It's beautiful and also the template for Valby esque cross training. Mix these 3 workouts and a long run, with all the rest being cross training on a machine and you have a low mileage/injury prevention training plan.
Listen to Citius podcast with Mac Fleet interviewing Mark Coogan and toward the end Mac Fleet asked for him what 3 workouts would he have a 1500m runner do if you could only choose 3. This is what he stated:
*20-25min threshold work +4-6x45 seconds at 1500m pace
*6-7x1k at 5k pace
*12x400 at 1500m pace w/90 seconds recovery if needed split into 2 sets
Do the running nerds of LRC agree?
All great workouts and by bo means am I a coach, but to incorporate speed at faster than 1500m pace one workout I would add a few 200s and 300s at 800m to 1000m race pace
If traditionally VO2 max intervals are at 2 mile-ish pace, and threshold work at well beyond 10k pace, what is 5-6 x 800 at 5k pace (or his 6-7 x 1k at 5k)? I do see some pros working at that pace a lot. It doesn't really jive with say Daniels type paces. Its not fast enough for intervals, too fast for threshold. All work is probably good, its a continuum, but why the tweener 5k pace?
A lot of runners, including elite runners, have found Daniels' paces too fast at I. Why run faster when you can get the same benefit by slowing down to 5k pace? There is nothing magical about 3k vs. 5k pace.
Its a little magical...one guy did a lot of experiments on real people to find that 3k number! But alas, maybe the real answer is it depends on the rep distance. 400s at 3k are clearly diff than 1ks at 3k pace ( but its about rest too). But make no mistake, Daniels was talking about 3-5 min efforts and that is well into 800s or 1ks for I. I guess as long as you hit that RPE/HR target...?