It is precisely because she wasn't charged with homicide that the higher standard of proof wasn't applied. Don't be too hard in yourself. It is all beyond you.
Completely fact deprived as seems to be your motto as Shelburrito's wannabe unofficial lawyer...
I am the only one who points out the wild boar?? Why don't you look at the facts for a change.
TD2021:
The origin of the urinary 19-NA may not be established by GC/C/IRMS analysis, since the varying diets of migrating wild boars lead to dissimilar δ13C values which may range between -15 ‰ and -25 ‰ [9].
No varying diets, no migrating wild boars here, henceworth CAS:
The Panel finds that the carbon isotope signature of the Athlete’s A- and B-Samples is neither consistent with the carbon isotope signature of commercial pork in the United States nor her own signature.
Check mate. Again.
"there are doubts whether the pigs ate soy (Prof. McGlone concession)"
LOL. What a stupid obfuscation. They always eat soy, just not enough to reach the CIR of Shelburrito's artificial nandrolone.
CAS summarizing McGlone:
The average proportion of corn to soybean in the pig feed is around 80:20: the soybean content is reduced to around 10% in the period before slaughter (6 weeks of age). Prof McGlone conceded at hearing that the diet of some pigs was altered during the COVID-19 pandemic due to the fact that the supply chain slowed down, which resulted in certain pig farms increasing the amount of soy fed to their pigs as opposed to corn. However, Prof McGlone submits that this practice was not maintained for a sustained period of time because of the (higher) costs of soybean and that corn remained overall the main diet source for all pigs in the United States.
"corn remained overall the main diet source for all pigs" - get it? No varying diet... check mate. Again.
"(limited extent of WA/AIU rebuttal"??? "complete claim of offal"??? hahahaha. You are poorly informed.
Tucker here on letsrun:
Yes, based on what’s presented in the CAS Reasoned Decision of the case, it’s difficult to argue for any decision other than the one CAS reached.
...
All Houlihan was able to show is that the pork stomach meat from the food truck in December 2020 came from a batch dating back to September 2020
...
That said, the high levels in the Guay paper were from kidney, liver and heart. The kidney in particular is what triggers the high values. Did Houlihan paint her defence into a corner by claiming stomach? It certainly allowed McGlone to make that case about the outer lining of the stomach. Had she claimed kidney, liver or heart, would her defence have been accepted, or at least stronger? I have to assume that they looked closely at this study, and saw the same thing you did. But they appear not to have played this card anywhere — I couldn’t see an occasion where Houlihan argued that it’s possible for kidney to make its way into a pork burrito. All we know, from Point 99, is that the food truck truck’s pork burritos were either chorizo (pork sausage) or buche/maw (stomach). But perhaps that information just didn’t make its way into the Reasoned Decision.
Tucker concluding:
With confidence, I’d say “not innocent on the basis of pork burrito ingestion."
Check mate. Give it up, mate.
Finally, your idol Tygart in the famous podcast:
The Athletics Integrity Unit that handled it did exactly what they were supposed to do under the rules
.... The CAS decision I think in the Houlihan case does a really good job of analyzing the facts and the data and the evidence
No doubt remains.
But sure, keep repeating your nonsense for three more years. Sooner or later you might start believing it.
Half the quotes are about wild boars, and half are not -- because "wild" is not the relevant criteria. You are the only one who says "only" when imagining "only problematic in the case of wild boar". None of your quotes say that the exclusive criteria is "wild". All of them say the key criteria is "varied diets".
As you keep quoting, all parties knew the diets were varied during the pandemic, even if it was only for a short time: "Prof McGlone conceded at hearing that the diet of some pigs was altered ... certain pig farms increasing the amount of soy fed to their pigs as opposed to corn". This is precisely what science says will shift the GC/C/IRMS result and possibly lead to adverse analytical finding -- like Houlihan's.
This explains why the TD2021NA clarifies to the WADA Lab that "Following consumption of the edible parts of non-castrated male pigs", "The origin of the urinary 19-NA may not be established by GC/C/IRMS analysis ...".
Note how the TD includes all boars, i.e. "non-castrated male pigs", "migrating wild boars", and "edible parts of intact pigs", in the same comment -- contradicting any suggestion of "only wild boars".
The CAS findings do not increase certainty, only finality. See Armstronglivs repeated argument that none of the CAS findings can be considered "beyond reasonable doubt". All of the CAS findings are decided on a "probably/probably not" balance.
Ross Tucker does not increase certainty either.
Tygart says the AIU followed the rules, but also argues that the rules should be changed because it risks railroading innocent athletes to 4-year bans.
Conclusion -- all reasonable doubts that existed before, or were raised during the proceeding, cannot be eliminated by applying the lower standard of balance of probabilities.
Don't be too hard on yourself. It is precisely because the higher evidentiary standard is not used, that the reasonable doubts remain.
It is precisely because she wasn't charged with homicide that the higher standard of proof wasn't applied. Don't be too hard in yourself. It is all beyond you.
... but not beyond reasonable doubt.
She was convicted on "presumptions" and findings of "probably" and "probably not".
It is precisely because she wasn't charged with homicide that the higher standard of proof wasn't applied. Don't be too hard in yourself. It is all beyond you.
... but not beyond reasonable doubt.
She was convicted on "presumptions" and findings of "probably" and "probably not".
The only thing which is beyond reasonable doubt is that you are a moron. Fortunately for you that isn't a criminal offence. She wasn't charged with a crime and on the balance of probabilities her defence failed. Like all your arguments do.
She was convicted on "presumptions" and findings of "probably" and "probably not".
The only thing which is beyond reasonable doubt is that you are a moron. Fortunately for you that isn't a criminal offence. She wasn't charged with a crime and on the balance of probabilities her defence failed. Like all your arguments do.
There you go again. Someone writes something you disagree with, and your response is to insult them. You have some serious issues.
Half the quotes are about wild boars, and half are not -- because "wild" is not the relevant criteria. You are the only one who says "only" when imagining "only problematic in the case of wild boar". None of your quotes say that the exclusive criteria is "wild". All of them say the key criteria is "varied diets".
As you keep quoting, all parties knew the diets were varied during the pandemic, even if it was only for a short time: "Prof McGlone conceded at hearing that the diet of some pigs was altered ... certain pig farms increasing the amount of soy fed to their pigs as opposed to corn". This is precisely what science says will shift the GC/C/IRMS result and possibly lead to adverse analytical finding -- like Houlihan's.
This explains why the TD2021NA clarifies to the WADA Lab that "Following consumption of the edible parts of non-castrated male pigs", "The origin of the urinary 19-NA may not be established by GC/C/IRMS analysis ...".
Note that the reason for this "may not be established" is explicitly "the varying diets of migrating wild boars" as quoted, which you of course removed from your quote in your classic rekrunner style. Why, you wonder? Evidently because the variations of the diet of the "migrating wild boars" are a lot more significant than the ones in pig farms (e.g. between 10 and 20% of the expensive soy), as pointed out by both Ayotte in her papers and McGlone.
You wrote "This is precisely what science says will shift the GC/C/IRMS result and possibly lead to adverse analytical finding -- like Houlihan's." That remains again obviously wrong, no matter how often you repeat that nonsense: to shift the CIR that substantially, the diet change has to be substantial (which was not mentioned) and close to the slaughter time (which was not mentioned) and for an extended amount of time (which was not the case as I quoted and you keep removing from the quote in your classic rekrunner style LOL).
That explains then the unanimous findings of not "consistent" of the CAS panel.
Note that the reason for this "may not be established" is explicitly "the varying diets of migrating wild boars" as quoted, which you of course removed from your quote in your classic rekrunner style. Why, you wonder? Evidently because the variations of the diet of the "migrating wild boars" are a lot more significant than the ones in pig farms (e.g. between 10 and 20% of the expensive soy), as pointed out by both Ayotte in her papers and McGlone.
You wrote "This is precisely what science says will shift the GC/C/IRMS result and possibly lead to adverse analytical finding -- like Houlihan's." That remains again obviously wrong, no matter how often you repeat that nonsense: to shift the CIR that substantially, the diet change has to be substantial (which was not mentioned) and close to the slaughter time (which was not mentioned) and for an extended amount of time (which was not the case as I quoted and you keep removing from the quote in your classic rekrunner style LOL).
That explains then the unanimous findings of not "consistent" of the CAS panel.
The why was to emphasize that it is not "only wild boars" as you insist based on considering just half the facts. What is classic is that I always need to supplement half the facts with the other half of the facts.
You are right to point out "the varying diets". That is what we learned from the Huslemann quotes and the study on German wild boars and Prof. Jahren's research on the diets of pigs. Everything hinges on changing the diet between C4 (e.g. corn) and C3 (e.g. soy) plants, e.g. the case of the varying diets of migrating boars, and the case of the varied diets with increased soy for pigs during the pandemic, as Prof. McGlone conceded and confirmed.
When the same TD comment starts with "Following consumption of the edible parts of non-castrated male pigs" and is followed by "the varying diets of migrating wild boars" and then again followed by "if consumption of edible parts of intact pigs is invoked by an Athlete" -- there is no reasonable, honest, way to justify your assertion that it's "only problematic in the case of wild boar". The TD, and the science, expresses equal concern about the cases of "non-castrated male pigs" and "intact pigs".
All of these things you say "was not mentioned" are just more reasons that there are lingering doubts about the accuracy and certainty of all of these intermediate CAS findings. Arguing that the CAS was unaware of some of the facts does not argue towards increased certainty, but towards increased doubt.
The unanimous finding of the CAS was a firm "probably not" based on the incomplete evidence before them.
This post was edited 31 seconds after it was posted.
She was convicted on "presumptions" and findings of "probably" and "probably not".
The only thing which is beyond reasonable doubt is that you are a moron. Fortunately for you that isn't a criminal offence. She wasn't charged with a crime and on the balance of probabilities her defence failed. Like all your arguments do.
I was warned that responding to you would bring me down to your level.
The only thing which is beyond reasonable doubt is that you are a moron. Fortunately for you that isn't a criminal offence. She wasn't charged with a crime and on the balance of probabilities her defence failed. Like all your arguments do.
There you go again. Someone writes something you disagree with, and your response is to insult them. You have some serious issues.
The only thing which is beyond reasonable doubt is that you are a moron. Fortunately for you that isn't a criminal offence. She wasn't charged with a crime and on the balance of probabilities her defence failed. Like all your arguments do.
I was warned that responding to you would bring me down to your level.
Half the quotes are about wild boars, and half are not -- because "wild" is not the relevant criteria. You are the only one who says "only" when imagining "only problematic in the case of wild boar". None of your quotes say that the exclusive criteria is "wild". All of them say the key criteria is "varied diets".
As you keep quoting, all parties knew the diets were varied during the pandemic, even if it was only for a short time: "Prof McGlone conceded at hearing that the diet of some pigs was altered ... certain pig farms increasing the amount of soy fed to their pigs as opposed to corn". This is precisely what science says will shift the GC/C/IRMS result and possibly lead to adverse analytical finding -- like Houlihan's.
This explains why the TD2021NA clarifies to the WADA Lab that "Following consumption of the edible parts of non-castrated male pigs", "The origin of the urinary 19-NA may not be established by GC/C/IRMS analysis ...".
Note that the reason for this "may not be established" is explicitly "the varying diets of migrating wild boars" as quoted, which you of course removed from your quote in your classic rekrunner style. Why, you wonder? Evidently because the variations of the diet of the "migrating wild boars" are a lot more significant than the ones in pig farms (e.g. between 10 and 20% of the expensive soy), as pointed out by both Ayotte in her papers and McGlone.
You wrote "This is precisely what science says will shift the GC/C/IRMS result and possibly lead to adverse analytical finding -- like Houlihan's." That remains again obviously wrong, no matter how often you repeat that nonsense: to shift the CIR that substantially, the diet change has to be substantial (which was not mentioned) and close to the slaughter time (which was not mentioned) and for an extended amount of time (which was not the case as I quoted and you keep removing from the quote in your classic rekrunner style LOL).
That explains then the unanimous findings of not "consistent" of the CAS panel.
To argue his "facts" is to go down his rabbit-hole. There can be no escape. It is better to p*ss down it; it is more entertaining.
Are you saying it’s probable or even a reasonable doubt? You’ve thought a lot about this - What’s your percentage likelihood that it was the burrito?
What I am saying, and the CAS told us, is that the source was not identified with sufficient evidence -- any attempts by any party to guess the likelihood of any source based on insufficient evidence will be just that -- guessing without sufficient evidence. Three sources have been identified as possible. The CAS did not find any "more likely" source, but only that the evidence for one "possible" source was insufficient for them to find it was "more likely than not". The CAS did not evaluate the likelihood of any other alternatives, so the evidence for these alternative possibilities are also insufficient.
If you haven't seen it before, here is a summary of my thoughts. Sorry for the length, but as I am not bound by adopting WADA's presumptions, my doubts about the certainty of most all of the CAS findings are many:
First and foremost for context, while many find it most "plausible", I find it is simply not plausible that a sophisticated distance runner from Nike's remaining USA flagship team, would orally ingest a "low" (WADA's word) amount of nandrolone on purpose (high risk, low reward). Especially not after the Sydney Olympics in 2000 and high profile busts.
For this reason, given the sole occurrence before the CAS of a "low" (WADA's word) amount of orally ingested nandrolone (of questionable performance benefit), I would estimate a high likelihood of accidental ingestion, either unknowingly from a greasy burrito (as evidenced before the CAS), or possibly from supplements or vitamins contaminated with nandrolone (alternative scenario not presented to the CAS).
Since the CAS findings are based on unrebutted presumptions permitted by the WADA Code, rather than meeting the higher burden of "beyond reasonable doubt", some reasonable doubts must remain. Some of these doubts were before the CAS, and some were not. For those that are not, I remind everyone that Houlihan was fully sanctioned for not bringing sufficient evidence.
Now let's address your handle. Was it properly an AAF or an ATF? The CAS was not unanimous here, and the minority of the CAS Panel found a deviation from the reporting standard. Getting this wrong cannot always be cured later, simply by burdening the athlete to find the source, and then determine the specific nature of some of its ingredients (i.e. establishing the presence of nandrolone and its CIR), 1 month after the event. The probability of meeting such a burden is low, and will come at great cost in both time and money. Even less so when the likelihoods were altered temporarily, during the pandemic. This high cost and low probabilty is not just my opinion. Letsrun's expert-for-hire Prof. Ross Tucker estimated 6 months (bye bye OIympics 2021) and low to mid 6 figures (bye bye life savings), and still gave the chance of success as slim.
I also find the reasons given by the CAS for Prof. Ayotte rejecting the claim of an AAF (see bottom of 73) clearly deviate from the TDs. It is not within either TD for the WADA Lab to report based on any notion of "plausibility", or "likelihood". Furthermore, it seems highly misleading (at best) to compare Houlihan's levels to "pig meat", representing it as "more than twice exceeding the highest amount reported in literature", when the claim was "a burrito containing pork offal", and Houlihan's levels were less than 1/20th of Prof. Ayotte's own literature on pork offal ingestion. These are not appropriate questions for the WADA Lab to consider when reporting the result.
What about some of the assumptions driving the CAS intermediate findings?
Were the intact boars necessarily cryptorchids and at most 6 months old? This alternative was not before the CAS, but what about chemical castration and delayed slaughter? Due to forced shutdowns delaying slaughter, the pigs could have been as old as 8 or 9 months, enough time for the 2nd dose of the vaccine to wear off (according to Improvac's website). This would mean that one or two of Prof. McGlone's assumptions (only cryptorchids and at most 6 months old) were not valid for a short but relevant period during the pandemic.
Did the WA/AIU rebut Houlihan's claim of "offal"? Both WA/AIU experts curiously focused on a reduced claim of pig meat and stomach, rather than Houlihan's claim of "a burrito containing pork offal". It's all the more suprising given both experts expressly told us that offal can be rich in nandrolone in the kidneys, liver, testes, fat, and salivary glands. I think it cannot be an oversight that these experts limited their rebuttal to nandrolone poor meat and stomach, giving the CAS the impression of a strong rebuttal, yet falling short of rebutting Houlihan's claim to the AIU in correspondence of "a burrito containing pork offal". Even more surprising is Prof. Ayotte's representation that Houlihan's levels were 2-3x what was found in research, while concealing that her own research that disproves her by a factor of 50-60x. This would not be the first case that Prof. Ayotte misrepresented what was going on in her lab (see the case of Jarrion Lawson, and why it was overturned by that CAS panel).
And then there is the question of the pigs diet. While in normal times, pigs in the USA eat mostly cheaper corn, Prof. McGlone conceded that soy was increased in the diets during a short, yet relevant, time period. Just like for oral nor-DHEA, the GC/C/IRMS result is "fully consistent with" pigs on a diet of increased soy (or any other "C3" plants). This is why the TD2021NA says "The origin of the urinary 19-NA may not be established by GC/IRMS analysis" "if consumption of edible parts of intact pigs is invoked by an Athlete as the unlikely origin of a 19-NA finding". And yet the pseudo-endogenous result was used to establish an exogenous origin.
For these reasons, any suggestion that someone knows the likelihood of intentional doping with any certainty must be taken with a pound of salt.
Thanks, but you didn’t answer - what percentage likelihood?
Yes, AAF vs AFT was decided and by a majority. The handle just notes the status and standard applied. Pick any standard - percentage likelihood do you believe it is? Thanks!
What I am saying, and the CAS told us, is that the source was not identified with sufficient evidence -- any attempts by any party to guess the likelihood of any source based on insufficient evidence will be just that -- guessing without sufficient evidence. Three sources have been identified as possible. The CAS did not find any "more likely" source, but only that the evidence for one "possible" source was insufficient for them to find it was "more likely than not". The CAS did not evaluate the likelihood of any other alternatives, so the evidence for these alternative possibilities are also insufficient.
If you haven't seen it before, here is a summary of my thoughts. Sorry for the length, but as I am not bound by adopting WADA's presumptions, my doubts about the certainty of most all of the CAS findings are many:
First and foremost for context, while many find it most "plausible", I find it is simply not plausible that a sophisticated distance runner from Nike's remaining USA flagship team, would orally ingest a "low" (WADA's word) amount of nandrolone on purpose (high risk, low reward). Especially not after the Sydney Olympics in 2000 and high profile busts.
For this reason, given the sole occurrence before the CAS of a "low" (WADA's word) amount of orally ingested nandrolone (of questionable performance benefit), I would estimate a high likelihood of accidental ingestion, either unknowingly from a greasy burrito (as evidenced before the CAS), or possibly from supplements or vitamins contaminated with nandrolone (alternative scenario not presented to the CAS).
Since the CAS findings are based on unrebutted presumptions permitted by the WADA Code, rather than meeting the higher burden of "beyond reasonable doubt", some reasonable doubts must remain. Some of these doubts were before the CAS, and some were not. For those that are not, I remind everyone that Houlihan was fully sanctioned for not bringing sufficient evidence.
Now let's address your handle. Was it properly an AAF or an ATF? The CAS was not unanimous here, and the minority of the CAS Panel found a deviation from the reporting standard. Getting this wrong cannot always be cured later, simply by burdening the athlete to find the source, and then determine the specific nature of some of its ingredients (i.e. establishing the presence of nandrolone and its CIR), 1 month after the event. The probability of meeting such a burden is low, and will come at great cost in both time and money. Even less so when the likelihoods were altered temporarily, during the pandemic. This high cost and low probabilty is not just my opinion. Letsrun's expert-for-hire Prof. Ross Tucker estimated 6 months (bye bye OIympics 2021) and low to mid 6 figures (bye bye life savings), and still gave the chance of success as slim.
I also find the reasons given by the CAS for Prof. Ayotte rejecting the claim of an AAF (see bottom of 73) clearly deviate from the TDs. It is not within either TD for the WADA Lab to report based on any notion of "plausibility", or "likelihood". Furthermore, it seems highly misleading (at best) to compare Houlihan's levels to "pig meat", representing it as "more than twice exceeding the highest amount reported in literature", when the claim was "a burrito containing pork offal", and Houlihan's levels were less than 1/20th of Prof. Ayotte's own literature on pork offal ingestion. These are not appropriate questions for the WADA Lab to consider when reporting the result.
What about some of the assumptions driving the CAS intermediate findings?
Were the intact boars necessarily cryptorchids and at most 6 months old? This alternative was not before the CAS, but what about chemical castration and delayed slaughter? Due to forced shutdowns delaying slaughter, the pigs could have been as old as 8 or 9 months, enough time for the 2nd dose of the vaccine to wear off (according to Improvac's website). This would mean that one or two of Prof. McGlone's assumptions (only cryptorchids and at most 6 months old) were not valid for a short but relevant period during the pandemic.
Did the WA/AIU rebut Houlihan's claim of "offal"? Both WA/AIU experts curiously focused on a reduced claim of pig meat and stomach, rather than Houlihan's claim of "a burrito containing pork offal". It's all the more suprising given both experts expressly told us that offal can be rich in nandrolone in the kidneys, liver, testes, fat, and salivary glands. I think it cannot be an oversight that these experts limited their rebuttal to nandrolone poor meat and stomach, giving the CAS the impression of a strong rebuttal, yet falling short of rebutting Houlihan's claim to the AIU in correspondence of "a burrito containing pork offal". Even more surprising is Prof. Ayotte's representation that Houlihan's levels were 2-3x what was found in research, while concealing that her own research that disproves her by a factor of 50-60x. This would not be the first case that Prof. Ayotte misrepresented what was going on in her lab (see the case of Jarrion Lawson, and why it was overturned by that CAS panel).
And then there is the question of the pigs diet. While in normal times, pigs in the USA eat mostly cheaper corn, Prof. McGlone conceded that soy was increased in the diets during a short, yet relevant, time period. Just like for oral nor-DHEA, the GC/C/IRMS result is "fully consistent with" pigs on a diet of increased soy (or any other "C3" plants). This is why the TD2021NA says "The origin of the urinary 19-NA may not be established by GC/IRMS analysis" "if consumption of edible parts of intact pigs is invoked by an Athlete as the unlikely origin of a 19-NA finding". And yet the pseudo-endogenous result was used to establish an exogenous origin.
For these reasons, any suggestion that someone knows the likelihood of intentional doping with any certainty must be taken with a pound of salt.
Thanks, but you didn’t answer - what percentage likelihood?
Yes, AAF vs AFT was decided and by a majority. The handle just notes the status and standard applied. Pick any standard - percentage likelihood do you believe it is? Thanks!
OK. 50-90%.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.