Yeah, all cis men and women can do that. You might also tolerate trans men doing the same thing.
But if you are trans women / girls, stay away from sports. Just keep your head down, try to avoid anything that might invite any attention to you, and be thankful that you are allowed to exist.
It isn't an issue when the athletes are not competitive. If a girl wants to run in the boys race, there is no harm done and it is not a big deal. But if you flip that around and let boys into girls' sports, there is a major impact in the results. That is the difference.
If the boy transition and runs with the girl and is a random mid-pack person, then honestly, I don't care. I support trans people living their own lives. But if they blast an amazing 16:50 5km and win state (in most states that would win), then it seems kind of mean towards all the girls in that state who care about sport.
It has a lot to do with if a person is selfishly spoiling the competition for others.
But the seventh runner on most HS team would be a "mid-pack" runner in the big scheme of things. And you are upset because one of those runners was bumped by a trans student. And that could be true of any mid-pack runner who could be bumped from the 7th spot on her HS team.
And why is it less selfish to bump a 7th girl from a varsity team? Because you are less talented and cannot replace more people? So the message to a trans student is to be mediocre and try not to work hard toward your goal and be lazy. Yeah, she should stop sports if that's the message she is getting. It's better for their mental health to stop competing rather than becoming the targets of intense hate and violence.
And I personally know of a girl who was bumped off her varsity team by a male. She was "only" their seventh runner. But all her training partners and friends were on that varsity team. Her body changed and so did the male's. Guess who suddenly got 58 seconds faster in the 5km? Not the girl. So now she was back on JV racing with a rag-tag mix of random girls she didn't really know who don't really even care about cross. And the trans-girl is going through male puberty (as is healthy for his body) and about to dominate the field in the girls' 5km next fall. Does that sound fair or right to you? What should we tell the entire girls' field if this one random trans-girl suddenly runs 16:20 at State?
This does NOT sound fair to me.
It also does not sound fair to me to think every trans girl in HS sports is like this xc country runner. That's far from reality.
Yes! You are right. And 95% of the people I know who transitioned aren't really into sports in the first place. They are certainly NOT interested in competitive sports results. At least that does not sound like the people I know (and work with).
The problem is that you just need one kid to run 16:40 (5km) or 2:08 (800m) or whatever to ruin the results for all the girls in the entire state.
The scenario I described was even more bitter for the girls because the trans-girl is not even "that into it." Sports are not part of her identity really. She just runs fast and whatev's! She doesn't even seem to know much about running or care about it that much.
This post was edited 9 minutes after it was posted.
But the seventh runner on most HS team would be a "mid-pack" runner in the big scheme of things. And you are upset because one of those runners was bumped by a trans student. And that could be true of any mid-pack runner who could be bumped from the 7th spot on her HS team.
I hear what you are saying but implying that the girl is just not "good enough" for it to matter is rude to girls. None of them are good enough to beat a mid-pack boy...
It has to do with daily life on the team and at every practice. It is about belonging and social-emotional connections for females in a space (sports) that has historically been dominated by male bodies...
For girls to lose their spot on their own team is just as harmful as being bumped off the podium at a big invite, for example.
That is why it isn't only about the "top" kids in the country. It is about whenever these transitions mess with the dynamics of sports for girls (which should have been protect by Title IX).
This post was edited 8 minutes after it was posted.
But the seventh runner on most HS team would be a "mid-pack" runner in the big scheme of things. And you are upset because one of those runners was bumped by a trans student. And that could be true of any mid-pack runner who could be bumped from the 7th spot on her HS team.
Saying the girl is not "good enough" for it to matter is rude to girls. None of them are good enough to beat a mid-pack boy...
It has to do with daily life on the team and at every practice and so on. It is about belonging and social-emotional connections for girls in a space (sports) that has historically been dominated by male bodies...
For girls to lose their spot on their own team is just as harmful as being bumped off the podium at a big invite, for example.
That is why it isn't only about the "top" kids in the country. It is about whenever these transitions mess with the dynamics of sports for girls (which should have been protect by Title IX).
Y'all are acting like this is the Olympics. This is mediocre high school track and field. This isn't even a high profile track meet, like New Balance Nationals. I agree that there needs to be policy barring this from collegiate athletics and professional sports (where money/scholarships/NIL is involved), but this is high school athletics. Let this kid have this affirming experience; she's not going to be able to compete collegiately, whereas all her competitors likely will.
That is the wrong way to look at it. Think of it in terms of harming girls' love of sports. After all, none of this really "matters" (even at the Olympic level). The power of sport comes from the fact that it is a great empowerer, it brings joy, and creates a sense of self-wroth (if you earn your results through hard work).
Men and women can find strength, beauty, and meaning in competition, teamwork, and fair-play. It doesn't really matter about the "level" of the competition.
A high school female has the same right to that as a high school male.
And I personally know of a girl who was bumped off her varsity team by a male. She was "only" their seventh runner. But all her training partners and friends were on that varsity team. Her body changed and so did the male's. Guess who suddenly got 58 seconds faster in the 5km? Not the girl. So now she was back on JV racing with a rag-tag mix of random girls she didn't really know who don't really even care about cross. And the trans-girl is going through male puberty (as is healthy for his body) and about to dominate the field in the girls' 5km next fall. Does that sound fair or right to you? What should we tell the entire girls' field if this one random trans-girl suddenly runs 16:20 at State?
16:20 is pretty fast and would be much faster than any other HS transgender female has managed. What’s her fastest time to date?
16:20 is pretty fast and would be much faster than any other HS transgender female has managed. What’s her fastest time to date?
Sorry, my bad... there is no 16:20. I am trying to get ahead of that curve. She has dropped a lot of time and is developing quickly as puberty kicks in.
I am asking other liberals to get ahead of the situation and consider what we will do when we have a Lia Thomas situation in HS cross country.
Full disclosure, there is no "hate" and certainly no "violence" in the situation I am describing. It is just awkward and challenging for everyone involved. Watching a male body kicking down a field of girls was weird for everyone. It wasn't "empowering" and there was nothing the girls could do about it. It was not a fun day at Cross Country.
Anyway, I am just trying to navigate a situation before it hits us in the face. The far Right already knows what they are going to say. The far Left is pretty clear on what they will say. I am in the middle trying to make this work for as many people as possible but not at the cost of girls just because they are the ones who are impacted by this issue.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
By this logic, whites in the South in the 1950's had no basis to complain about discrimination against blacks.
Here’s the natural conclusion of the pinhead school of debate: High school track and Jim Crow are equivalent and there is no nuance in anything ever.
You left out the point I was responding to. The original poster said you had no right to complain if you aren't personally impacted. That's a ridiculous argument, even if high school athletics pales in comparison to racial discrimination.
Here’s the natural conclusion of the pinhead school of debate: High school track and Jim Crow are equivalent and there is no nuance in anything ever.
You left out the point I was responding to. The original poster said you had no right to complain if you aren't personally impacted. That's a ridiculous argument, even if high school athletics pales in comparison to racial discrimination.
So you are taking the stance that white people were not directly impacted by segregation? Are you actually John Birch? Your point is absolutely the two are equivalent or why are you making it?
Segregation ripped every aspect of Southern society apart by force. It was a negative socially, morally and economically for every single person in the nation. It was unavoidable and enforced at gunpoint and nobody could opt out.
Restricting people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms those people and does not, in any meaningful way, harm the population of people born women who choose to compete, or the people watching them or coaching them. You can try to make the case that finishing 5th instead of 4th is material to someone’s life I guess. Just like there are people whining about the refs 10 years later. But if you try to claim a bystander watching a transgender girl taking that 4th is damaged in the way a bystander watching a black person being denied service at a restaurant would be, or turned away from a hotel, or physically forced out of a town, then I can’t help you.
I was the OP on the first post you responded to. For some reason I can’t use that name again.
It isn't an issue when the athletes are not competitive. If a girl wants to run in the boys race, there is no harm done and it is not a big deal. But if you flip that around and let boys into girls' sports, there is a major impact in the results. That is the difference.
If the boy transition and runs with the girl and is a random mid-pack person, then honestly, I don't care. I support trans people living their own lives. But if they blast an amazing 16:50 5km and win state (in most states that would win), then it seems kind of mean towards all the girls in that state who care about sport.
It has a lot to do with if a person is selfishly spoiling the competition for others.
But the seventh runner on most HS team would be a "mid-pack" runner in the big scheme of things. And you are upset because one of those runners was bumped by a trans student. And that could be true of any mid-pack runner who could be bumped from the 7th spot on her HS team.
And why is it less selfish to bump a 7th girl from a varsity team? Because you are less talented and cannot replace more people? So the message to a trans student is to be mediocre and try not to work hard toward your goal and be lazy. Yeah, she should stop sports if that's the message she is getting. It's better for their mental health to stop competing rather than becoming the targets of intense hate and violence.
If only the hate stops with sports...
And the 7th runner on prime Newbury park would be under 9:00.
So you are taking the stance that white people were not directly impacted by segregation? Are you actually John Birch? Your point is absolutely the two are equivalent or why are you making it?
Segregation ripped every aspect of Southern society apart by force. It was a negative socially, morally and economically for every single person in the nation. It was unavoidable and enforced at gunpoint and nobody could opt out.
Restricting people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms those people and does not, in any meaningful way, harm the population of people born women who choose to compete, or the people watching them or coaching them. You can try to make the case that finishing 5th instead of 4th is material to someone’s life I guess. Just like there are people whining about the refs 10 years later. But if you try to claim a bystander watching a transgender girl taking that 4th is damaged in the way a bystander watching a black person being denied service at a restaurant would be, or turned away from a hotel, or physically forced out of a town, then I can’t help you.
I was the OP on the first post you responded to. For some reason I can’t use that name again.
What'll end up happening is that a biological male breaks a biological female's neck or fractures her skull in a contact sport. Even possibly in soccer. That's when reform will happen. Until then, all the wokes will pretend it's not an issue.
16:20 is pretty fast and would be much faster than any other HS transgender female has managed. What’s her fastest time to date?
Sorry, my bad... there is no 16:20. I am trying to get ahead of that curve. She has dropped a lot of time and is developing quickly as puberty kicks in.
I am asking other liberals to get ahead of the situation and consider what we will do when we have a Lia Thomas situation in HS cross country.
Full disclosure, there is no "hate" and certainly no "violence" in the situation I am describing. It is just awkward and challenging for everyone involved. Watching a male body kicking down a field of girls was weird for everyone. It wasn't "empowering" and there was nothing the girls could do about it. It was not a fun day at Cross Country.
Anyway, I am just trying to navigate a situation before it hits us in the face. The far Right already knows what they are going to say. The far Left is pretty clear on what they will say. I am in the middle trying to make this work for as many people as possible but not at the cost of girls just because they are the ones who are impacted by this issue.
I think most rational people would simply not allow the boy to compete on the team. Obviously it isnt fair. If you want it to work for the boy then he can go run with the boys. Problem solved. If he doesnt identify as a boy then he can be told it is about sex and not gender and obviously whatever he believes his gender to be in his pea sized brain doesnt matter in sports but of course sex and the variations between the sexes should allow for some level of discrimination in competitive environments. That seems rational to me, but you are dealing with an irrational person (is there a better definition of irrational than a boy who thinks he is a girl?), so he may not get it.
I respect anyone's right to identify how they want in life, but sports are different. There is no difference between men or women if they want to be a doctor, carpenter, lawyer, mechanic or any other profession. But there is an inequality in sports. We have over 100 years of statistics to prove that men and women are physically different and biological men have a greater advantage. As an example, the men's shot put world record's record is 77-3¾ and the women's is 74-3. But the men throw 16lbs and the women throw 8.8lbs. Breaking 4 minutes in the 1500m for women is about the same as breaking 4 min in the mile (1609 meters). The high school national leader in the girls high jump would have been 329 in the boys event.
The most troubling statistic is that 5'0 ft scored at the CT Girls State Open and 76.7% of the boys who have competed in CT this indoor track season have cleared that height. And most of those under 5'0 are freshmen and sophomores. Forget comparing records, lets look at the percentage of males who can score in a female event and dramatically change the team scores.
Boys have never been allowed to compete in girls sports for the the very reason of this inequality, but girls have often chosen to compete with the boys for various reasons. In CT girls swim in the fall, but if they play soccer, they can choose to swim in the winter against the boys. But boys who want to play basketball can't swim in the fall against the girls. My question is, why can't transgender girls compete against boys? My second question is, what do you do about transgender girls who set records? Should they count as girl records?
List the ways this affects you personally. Not emotionally. Like did you finish second? Were you betting on high school girls long jump?
Maybe you should first examine your obsession with high school girls sports.
I’m a dad, I watch girls high school and girls college running because it’s fun, got weird tactics, large performance spread, crazy attempts, raw emotion etc. At the pro level it’s often boring and boys racing is more formulaic.
List the ways this affects you personally. Not emotionally. Like did you finish second? Were you betting on high school girls long jump?
Maybe you should first examine your obsession with high school girls sports.
I’m a dad, I watch girls high school and girls college running because it’s fun, got weird tactics, large performance spread, crazy attempts, raw emotion etc. At the pro level it’s often boring and boys racing is more formulaic.
And the occasional presence of a transgender girl changes that for you? Why? There would still be weird tactics and large performance spreads and raw emotion.
All of those things also apply to boys sports. Plenty of boys go out in 58 just to run a 2:23 800 and finish 100m back.
It also does not sound fair to me to think every trans girl in HS sports is like this xc country runner. That's far from reality.
Yes! You are right. And 95% of the people I know who transitioned aren't really into sports in the first place. They are certainly NOT interested in competitive sports results. At least that does not sound like the people I know (and work with).
The problem is that you just need one kid to run 16:40 (5km) or 2:08 (800m) or whatever to ruin the results for all the girls in the entire state.
The scenario I described was even more bitter for the girls because the trans-girl is not even "that into it." Sports are not part of her identity really. She just runs fast and whatev's! She doesn't even seem to know much about running or care about it that much.
The 7th runner on a XC team can be bumped off by any number of people. It could be a new girl from another district, another state, or even another country. It could be a very talented freshman. When Emily Sisson moved to Missouri, she literally bumped off everyone, including the defending state champion who was her new teammate. But no one thought it was unfair. So the sense of unfairness comes from the person who replaced this 7th runner. Think about the following four hypothetical runners, and whether they are more or less undeserving.
A. A 17 min runner who transitioned into a 19 min runner.
B. A 15 min runner who transitioned into a 17 min runner.
C. A 19 min runner who never competed as a male.
D. A 17 min runner who never competed as a male.
The difference between A and B is the number of people directly affected. But is Athlete B more undeserving than Athlete A? B is likely to win some titles, while A is not. But from the perspective of the displaced runner, does it make any difference?
C will probably go unnoticed. No one will start tranvestigation of a mid-pack runner who does not win anything important. But she is still replacing someone on the varsity squad. D is like the high jumper in the thread title. She is too good to escape scrutiny, and she gets outed. And she is affecting way more people than C.
Is there any difference between A/B and C/D? We know how good A/B were when they competed as boys. And we have a fairly good idea on how good they would be if they continued to compete as boys. We have no idea on C/D. They could be given the benefit of the doubt. Or they could be judged more harshly by people who assume they would be equally slow without transition.
Restricting people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms those people and does not, in any meaningful way, harm the population of people born women who choose to compete, or the people watching them or coaching them.
this is absurd. this is nothing but opinion. the opposite is completely rational and defendable
Allowing people who genuinely identify as women from competing in amateur sports disproportionately harms the other competitors. Women's sports exist to create an equal playing field for those born without the benefit of testerone or other biologically male features. It does not, in any meaningful way harm the population of trans people who are born male but identify as female. They have male sports for which they are welcome to participate.
Finally - if we think about numbers - I would argue this statement is more true. If the winner of women's sports become dominated by a few trans individuals, then all biogical women may suffer. Their own motivation will fall and the whole point of women's sports may be at risk.
My question is, why can't transgender girls compete against boys? My second question is, what do you do about transgender girls who set records? Should they count as girl records?
The answer to your first question is that some trans girls are going (or at least trying to go) stealth, like the high jumper in the thread title. So by competing against boys, she will be outing herself as trans.
Even if she is not going stealth, her presence in the boys' competition could cause some disturbance among people who don't know she is trans... or even those who know.
When Mack Beggs wrestled against girls, he was booed off the matt. When he was finally allowed to wrestle against boys, he got booed again. So by being trans, he was in a no-win situation.
Another reason is the sense of belonging. A trans girl wants to be part of a group of girls, and be treated as one of them. But in a sport like track & field, this issue can be resolved by allowing her to be a part of the girls' team without counting her result for the team standings or official award. (Or giving a duplicate award to anyone who gets replaced by her.)
My answer to the second question would be to list two records, with the one by a trans athlete with an asterisk. The latter should be treated like an "all comer" record as opposed to the national record.
Going back to the first question, I think trans people will stop trying to go stealth once they are treated fairly respectfully as trans people. Back in Jim Crow era, there are many black people who tried to pass as white. We no longer have those people. In spite of all the problems we still have today, we have made great progress compared to Jim Crow era.