if I were doping, I’d try to be personable and polite and work very hard on having a likeable image. As fans, we rarely ever have a conversation with any of these athletes. All we base it on is how they look and their interviews. Totally subjective.
Letsrun sure trusts people who seem to be down to earth white folks.
if I were doping, I’d try to be personable and polite and work very hard on having a likeable image. As fans, we rarely ever have a conversation with any of these athletes. All we base it on is how they look and their interviews. Totally subjective.
Letsrun sure trusts people who seem to be down to earth white folks.
I’ve been involved with top level athletics for a very long time. I don’t doubt for a moment that St. Pierre is legitimate. No one in that group is doing anything outside the rules.
Ok, so Ellie and Nick Willis are the two least likely to dope medalists ever. got it. what do they have in common?
They don't watch porn?
I don't think there's any athlete who I'd be surprised was doping. There have been plenty of nice, ostensibly honest athletes who have been busted already. I think the ones who choose not to dope never reach the highest level of sport. Maybe there's a spectrum of doping though, where certain athletes are dirtier than others. Some athletes are under less scrutiny or are willing to take more risks.
But something is amiss, and it's not just the shoes either.If you look at cycling, there's been a tremendous increase in the level of athletes, who now are in peak shape year round. There's no more specialization either. You have TdF GC contenders now winning spring classics with ease and winning time trials against TT beasts.
I mean, if I could pick one athlete male or female that I would be shocked it they ever got caught doping, it'd be her.
So, if she can lace 'em up and win, then maybe others are clean too?
I have newfound hope that T&F isn't a complete sham!
Thanks Elle!
This post might be a bait, but I think a lot of people who pay attention to the sport think this.
I hate the whole “everyone is cheating” bs but there is a way to be appropriately skeptical without jumping to this lazy conclusion.
so, for those of you who believe Elle is clean…can you explain why? You probably don’t know her personally, so you can’t actually vouch for her character. She’s seen massive improvements in recent years and setting an American record 10 months post partum is…pretty….unbelievable.
the way everyone initially reacted to the Shelby doping scandal was telling. There is still a lot of bias among media and fans with who has good “character” and won’t dope and who will. It’s hard to take anyone at face value when they say without any explanation they believe Elle, a white all American farm girl, would NEVER dope while casually dismissing runners from African countries as cheaters.
so if you don’t think Elle is doping, explain concrete reasons why.
I think this is a really good post. It always puzzles me when someone here seems to know a particular athlete is clean. Why would they do this about someone they don't know. It could be different if the poster actually knows the athlete but that's rarely the case and even knowing someone doesn't mean you know everything they're doing.
Personally, I'd never say that I'm sure someone is clean though I might there's a good chance they are. I'm not sure Elle is clean but other than having just had a real breakthrough performance nothing suggests to me that she isn't. She doesn't have a coach who has been suspect. She's not with a shoe company or group that looks suspicious. There have been no failed tests or whereabouts violations. And as I recall there have been several instances where women athletes who've recently given birth make big improvements when they return. Still, I would never say I'm sure she's clean because there's no way of knowing.
I have the opposite take. She may have doped to get back into shape quickly. not sure why you think it's a case of no doping.
I wasn't going to bother posting on this thread cause I figured someone would bring up an official list of women who've performed extremely well within one to 2 years of having a baby. But I guess you guys haven't noticed. Sometimes they have peak performances. I don't know if it's hormones or a bigger rib cage or bigger heart or what. But Tiruensh Dibaba came back with a 2:18 marathon, Kara Goucher had her PR half-marathon time of 1:06 that didn't count for an American record cause it was the Boston course maybe?, then ran a good marathon time. Jo Pavey medaled in something, maybe European champs, that was the time Gwen Jorgensen thought she could medal in the marathon and ended up having a really good 5k or 10k time. Brigid Kosgei won her first marathon by 4 mins after she had had twins.
if I were doping, I’d try to be personable and polite and work very hard on having a likeable image. As fans, we rarely ever have a conversation with any of these athletes. All we base it on is how they look and their interviews. Totally subjective.
Letsrun sure trusts people who seem to be down to earth white folks.
I’ve been involved with top level athletics for a very long time. I don’t doubt for a moment that St. Pierre is legitimate. No one in that group is doing anything outside the rules.
With all due respect, your perspective means nothing on this, unless you spend 24 hours a day with her.
Elle's husband might not even know if she's doping or not. There are hours in a day where athletes are alone and unaccounted for.
My friend found out his grandpa had a 2nd family for 40 years. A wife, 3 kids. In the same state. His other family (he had two kids with his wife) had no idea until he died.
Just going to throw in my two cents here as someone who was on the track team at UNH the same time as Elle. From my experience she’s genuinely just someone who works extremely hard, always had the discipline, and honestly didn’t seem that obsessed with the T&F world. She was never over the top, not an attention seeker, and always a team player. Her progress post-college is not that surprising considering that UNH is pretty low-tier in terms of the support they can provide an athlete. Now she has teammates closer to her skill level, a coach who’s able to improve upon what Coach Hopp was able to start with her, and the sponsorships to train full time. Obviously we’ll never know what goes 24/7 in someone’s career. But it seems like Elle has a lot more important things in her life than to be doping and potentially putting her baby and reputation at risk.
I do think that if you start believing that one person is clean, then you have to give the benefit of the doubt to others as well. There are people on this board who think that every American is clean but then doubt the Ethiopians. That makes no sense. If Elle is clean, then isn't it reasonable to think that runners who run on dirt trails at altitude are also clean? I think that many runners are dirty. I also think that the African dominance of the 1990s and 2000s was in part due to American and British runners just being awful. Now maybe everyone is dirty, but there is absolutely no reason to believe in Elle but not believe in others.
This post might be a bait, but I think a lot of people who pay attention to the sport think this.
I hate the whole “everyone is cheating” bs but there is a way to be appropriately skeptical without jumping to this lazy conclusion.
so, for those of you who believe Elle is clean…can you explain why? You probably don’t know her personally, so you can’t actually vouch for her character. She’s seen massive improvements in recent years and setting an American record 10 months post partum is…pretty….unbelievable.
the way everyone initially reacted to the Shelby doping scandal was telling. There is still a lot of bias among media and fans with who has good “character” and won’t dope and who will. It’s hard to take anyone at face value when they say without any explanation they believe Elle, a white all American farm girl, would NEVER dope while casually dismissing runners from African countries as cheaters.
so if you don’t think Elle is doping, explain concrete reasons why.
I think this is a really good post. It always puzzles me when someone here seems to know a particular athlete is clean. Why would they do this about someone they don't know. It could be different if the poster actually knows the athlete but that's rarely the case and even knowing someone doesn't mean you know everything they're doing.
Personally, I'd never say that I'm sure someone is clean though I might there's a good chance they are. I'm not sure Elle is clean but other than having just had a real breakthrough performance nothing suggests to me that she isn't. She doesn't have a coach who has been suspect. She's not with a shoe company or group that looks suspicious. There have been no failed tests or whereabouts violations. And as I recall there have been several instances where women athletes who've recently given birth make big improvements when they return. Still, I would never say I'm sure she's clean because there's no way of knowing.
I said of all of T&F athletes, she'd surprise me the most. Her whole persona is wholesome, conservative values, etc. (save the, "you never really know celebs, athletes, etc. Of course I know this)
Of course I could be wrong, I don't know her, but like I said, I'd be stunned if she ever was caught doping.
As I reflect on the whole Indoor championships there were a lot of surprising results where westerners outperformed where I thought they'd be. Maybe they treated this meet with more import?
I wasn't going to bother posting on this thread cause I figured someone would bring up an official list of women who've performed extremely well within one to 2 years of having a baby. But I guess you guys haven't noticed. Sometimes they have peak performances. I don't know if it's hormones or a bigger rib cage or bigger heart or what. But Tiruensh Dibaba came back with a 2:18 marathon, Kara Goucher had her PR half-marathon time of 1:06 that didn't count for an American record cause it was the Boston course maybe?, then ran a good marathon time. Jo Pavey medaled in something, maybe European champs, that was the time Gwen Jorgensen thought she could medal in the marathon and ended up having a really good 5k or 10k time. Brigid Kosgei won her first marathon by 4 mins after she had had twins.
Excellent points. Perhaps some women learn they can push harder after going through childbirth.
I’ve been involved with top level athletics for a very long time. I don’t doubt for a moment that St. Pierre is legitimate. No one in that group is doing anything outside the rules.
With all due respect, your perspective means nothing on this, unless you spend 24 hours a day with her.
Elle's husband might not even know if she's doping or not. There are hours in a day where athletes are alone and unaccounted for.
My friend found out his grandpa had a 2nd family for 40 years. A wife, 3 kids. In the same state. His other family (he had two kids with his wife) had no idea until he died.
Secrets can be kept.
The scenario you’re offering is chalk and cheese to evading doping controls as a top athlete. Even a simple mobile phone would have made things more difficult to explain time out of touch in concealing a second family.
Successfully doping as a top athlete today is not a one person job. St. Pierre would have to procure these controlled substances, and not in her name or the name of anyone connected to her. She would then have to know the appropriate dosages and at what frequency to take them, relative to both her daily testing window and competition schedule, as well as whatever programme she would employ to flush her system.
No one is doing this successfully in a vacuum. What you suggest is known in a place like Kenya, where many top women have had their careers ended in shame due to husbands who saw their wives as cash points and encouraged or goaded them into taking banned substances.
The athletes who have successfully doped at a high level virtually always have significant assistance, whether that’s provided by the state, as is well known in the former Soviet bloc, or in clusters such as Trevor Graham’s Sprint Capitol. I can promise you that St. Pierre’s group is not one of them.
I do think that if you start believing that one person is clean, then you have to give the benefit of the doubt to others as well. There are people on this board who think that every American is clean but then doubt the Ethiopians. That makes no sense. If Elle is clean, then isn't it reasonable to think that runners who run on dirt trails at altitude are also clean? I think that many runners are dirty. I also think that the African dominance of the 1990s and 2000s was in part due to American and British runners just being awful. Now maybe everyone is dirty, but there is absolutely no reason to believe in Elle but not believe in others.
Oh I know the Ethiopians are doping. But judging by Haylom they may have been off cycle for the meet, not deeming it important enough. As to the rest, hope springs eternal.
Yeah, I'm with you. The intellectually lazy view of "everyone's doing it" bums me out, not least of why is that I was a clean (globally elite) cyclist in the dirtiest era. It feels like getting victimized twice: once from the cheaters themselves and secondly by the fans assuming that you're a doper, too. F*ck that thinking.
How many minutes were you behind lance and pantani?
I wasn't going to bother posting on this thread cause I figured someone would bring up an official list of women who've performed extremely well within one to 2 years of having a baby. But I guess you guys haven't noticed. Sometimes they have peak performances. I don't know if it's hormones or a bigger rib cage or bigger heart or what. But Tiruensh Dibaba came back with a 2:18 marathon, Kara Goucher had her PR half-marathon time of 1:06 that didn't count for an American record cause it was the Boston course maybe?, then ran a good marathon time. Jo Pavey medaled in something, maybe European champs, that was the time Gwen Jorgensen thought she could medal in the marathon and ended up having a really good 5k or 10k time. Brigid Kosgei won her first marathon by 4 mins after she had had twins.
Excellent points. Perhaps some women learn they can push harder after going through childbirth.
Her progression would indicate she is doping big time.
What about her progression indicates she would be a "big time" doper? Looking through her TFFRs she progressed pretty consistently over five years, and her pro career progression (via World Athletics) doesn't have an extreme drop times. It's really only in the 3k where you see a large drop (8:36 en route split 2021, 8:25 in Feb., 8:20 at Worlds), but it's not ridiculous to expect her to drop her 3k as her 1500/mile steadily dropped to world class.