Lactate training - baseline

Training Advice/Discussion

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11 months ago 05/17/2023 2:08pm EDT

re: St. Ignatius of Antioch

St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote:
How should newcomers to the sport be tested? They might be running just a few km or a few miles per day. Having them run 11 km (6.8 miles) is much more than they might be accustomed to and, I suppose, might not be a good test of lactate threshold.

Newcomers can be tested just like elites....you just start newcomers at a much lower effort level and provide a shallower slope in the graded exercise test, depending on how much talent or fitness a newcomer has.

If you have some info a priori, it will help select a protocol to get representative data.

11 months ago 05/17/2023 2:32pm EDT

re: Ayeayeaye

Ayeayeaye wrote:
Newcomers can be tested just like elites....

... Newcomers do not need any lactate testing. Also non-performance oriented runners do not need that.

This post was edited 22 seconds after it was posted.

11 months ago 05/17/2023 3:15pm EDT

re: lexel

lexel wrote:
Ayeayeaye wrote:
Newcomers can be tested just like elites....
... Newcomers do not need any lactate testing. Also non-performance oriented runners do not need that.

That's just like...your opinion, man.

Anyone who wants to map their physiology can be tested (assuming a quality protocol that provides meaningful and actionable data). I can test anyone. Why not? It's good practice.

Is it a good value to pay $250 USD for a one off test? Probably not. It's better to buy a meter and learn how to field test at home. Then you can actually learn something instead of being a speculator, like most people.

11 months ago 05/17/2023 4:19pm EDT

re: Ayeayeaye

Ayeayeaye wrote:

Would you be able to go into more detail on the protocol you use for these constant rate tests? I'm unfamiliar with it and would like to know more.

11 months ago 05/17/2023 5:14pm EDT

re: EuroStyle

It's actually very simple. It is better to perform testing on a treadmill or track for running.

On bike I ride in ERG mode on a trainer and do 60 minute workouts below mlss and take samples at 0, 2.5, 5, 7.5, 10, 15, 25, 40, and 60 minutes to develop curves for each level of intensity. For intensities above mlss, you just go to failure and see how fast lactate rises.

Plot everything on one chart. Time vs lactate for each intensity level and a picture will form.

Check out this website. It's fantastic, albeit dated.

out the first figure

lactate.com

Link:lactate.com/triathlon/lactate_triathlo...

"maximal lactate steady state for a runner"

11 months ago 05/23/2023 3:05am EDT

re: Ayeayeaye

Ayeayeaye wrote:
jiggymeister wrote:
Not the poster you're asking, but I don't think newcomers need to be tested for lactate threshold.
However, 4 stages is sufficient for establishing the lactate threshold. The important part is to test just under and just over 4 mmol/L.
4mmol/l is a meaningless number. Every single person has an individual lactate concentration associated with lactate threshold. It's chance that yours will fall on 4mmol/l. 2mmol/l is the same arbitrary threshold.

Except that it is not meaningless. I did not imply that 4 mmol/L is a universal threshold, but there exists a consensus in the literature to use it (V4) as a fixed level for reference.

E.g.:
Applied Physiology of Marathon Running
Sjödin, Bertil & Svedenhag, Jan Sports medicine 1985 2. 83-99.

They show that V4 had a 0.97 correlation of velocity at 4 mmol/L with performance in marathon across three finishing-time groups.

11 months ago 05/23/2023 9:33am EDT

re: jiggymeister

jiggymeister wrote:
Except that it is not meaningless. I did not imply that 4 mmol/L is a universal threshold, but there exists a consensus in the literature to use it (V4) as a fixed level for reference.
E.g.:
Applied Physiology of Marathon Running
Sjödin, Bertil & Svedenhag, Jan Sports medicine 1985 2. 83-99.
They show that V4 had a 0.97 correlation of velocity at 4 mmol/L with performance in marathon across three finishing-time groups.

But it IS meaningless as some common point in everyone’s physiology. The consensus is because most of sports science is derivative and seemingly copy/pasted.

That paper you referenced has such a small sample size of similarly trained runners. It’s a biased study. Throw some sprinters and middle distance runners in and see what happens to the 4 mmol/l value.

All I’m saying is that you should just forget those values and develop a personalized curve to analyze.

11 months ago 05/23/2023 11:57am EDT

re: Ayeyeyeye2

Ayeyeyeye2 wrote:
jiggymeister wrote:
Except that it is not meaningless. I did not imply that 4 mmol/L is a universal threshold, but there exists a consensus in the literature to use it (V4) as a fixed level for reference.
E.g.:
Applied Physiology of Marathon Running
Sjödin, Bertil & Svedenhag, Jan Sports medicine 1985 2. 83-99.
They show that V4 had a 0.97 correlation of velocity at 4 mmol/L with performance in marathon across three finishing-time groups.
But it IS meaningless as some common point in everyone’s physiology. The consensus is because most of sports science is derivative and seemingly copy/pasted.
That paper you referenced has such a small sample size of similarly trained runners. It’s a biased study. Throw some sprinters and middle distance runners in and see what happens to the 4 mmol/l value.
All I’m saying is that you should just forget those values and develop a personalized curve to analyze.

I mostly agree on the statement in bold.

However, all I'm saying is that you should not throw out the value of velocity at 4 mmol/L because it is easier to interpret and keep track of. Someone's LT1 and LT2 could easily be missed in between stages. Velocity at 4 mmol/L however, can easily be extrapolated from the curve.

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